A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Soaring
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

To Pawnee or not to Pawnee...that is the question...



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old October 16th 07, 12:16 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Travis Beach
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18
Default To Pawnee or not to Pawnee...that is the question...

Our club has a Piper Pawnee 235hp in excellent condition.
We just spent $35000 five years ago to completely overhaul
her...new fabric, new engine, anything that needed
to be replaced was...

Heres the rub...we are in the middle of a new two place
acquisition with the club making a decision about getting
a new two place intermediate performance. We were about
to drop the hammer when a very vocal minority raised
the issue of PAWNEE needing to be replaced citing extreme
maintenance cost (???) and inability to get parts.
He/She cited the local aero repair facility as his/her
source of information...Many of us just dont see this
as a problem. The replacement that was cited was a
Husky 180HP...I just dont see the reasoning of such
a switch...I surely would rather two a heavier two
place with a proven performer with 235 hp vs a 180...

What say you? Discuss...should we scrap the Pawnee
in favor of a Husky?

Beach



  #2  
Old October 16th 07, 02:27 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
BT
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 995
Default To Pawnee or not to Pawnee...that is the question...

We do not seem to have any problems getting Pawnee Parts.
What are the "extreme maint costs"? and how could those costs be reduced
with a more expensive to purchase Husky?
Do they remember the cost to rebuild from 5 years ago? Not to be repeated
soon.
You just put $35K into the Pawnee, does it have the wing attach points STC?
Any reason why you did not up the HP to 250HP on rebuild available via STC?

After 5 years, (based on our club) you are about 1000-1200 hours into the
engine.
Are you facing a rebuild soon or do you expect it to go to TBO??.. that's 4
more years.
Hopefully you have been "paying yourself" and have a separate "engine fund".

Everyone is facing the "horizontal attach points" AD that was released this
summer. You've got 1000 flying hours to fix it, if you find no problems on
regular inspections. We estimate about $2000-$2500 for that AD.

We average 12 gph in tow operations with a 250HP Pawnee, I'm guessing that
180HP Husky will be about 9-10gph, or at $4/gal, about $12 per hour cheaper
to operate... the 200HP (new at about $200K) will run 10-12gph.

But now lets look at the cost of insuring a $150-$200K Husky vice a $35K
Pawnee. fuhgetaboutit.

Someone mentioned the 200HP Husky, I'm sure it's a great tow bird, but you
may loose useful load.
Sure it's nice having a two seat tow for training purposes. We have a friend
with a Scout and tow hook. We train tow pilots in that and "graduate" them
into the Pawnee.

Keep the Pawnee, if your flying field can support a winch, get one.
BT


"Travis Beach" wrote in message
...
Our club has a Piper Pawnee 235hp in excellent condition.
We just spent $35000 five years ago to completely overhaul
her...new fabric, new engine, anything that needed
to be replaced was...

Heres the rub...we are in the middle of a new two place
acquisition with the club making a decision about getting
a new two place intermediate performance. We were about
to drop the hammer when a very vocal minority raised
the issue of PAWNEE needing to be replaced citing extreme
maintenance cost (???) and inability to get parts.
He/She cited the local aero repair facility as his/her
source of information...Many of us just dont see this
as a problem. The replacement that was cited was a
Husky 180HP...I just dont see the reasoning of such
a switch...I surely would rather two a heavier two
place with a proven performer with 235 hp vs a 180...

What say you? Discuss...should we scrap the Pawnee
in favor of a Husky?

Beach





  #3  
Old October 16th 07, 04:19 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Roy Bourgeois
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 15
Default To Pawnee or not to Pawnee...that is the question...

Our club runs a pair of 235 Pawnees (a "D" with the full Hutch =
conversion and a stock "C" model). We also tow with a L-19 Bird Dog. =
Another club I teach for runs a 260 hp Pawnee with the constant speed =
prop and a third club in New England runs a pair of 235s also. I think =
Caesar Creek also runs Pawnees as does Bermuda High. There are several =
at Boulder CO and one nice one at Salida. All Pawnees have had a hard =
life before they came to be tow planes and it's pretty easy to spend =
enough on an engine overhaul, a fabric recover, and the attach point =
AD/STC so that you've got more into the plane than any stock Pawnee is =
worth. There are a few parts that are hard to find but an experienced =
mechanic can usually work around those. We tend to burn through =
starters and brake pads - but most tow planes do. The solo checkout is =
not a problem - they fly real honest and and are not hard to land, but =
the inability to do dual practice towing would make me not want to use =
it as my sole towplane. I've towed behind (but not piloted) the Husky =
at both Mifflin & Albert Lea - and it does a credible job as a =
towplane. I would only be concerned about the high initial cost and the =
insurance costs. It's a little like the price difference between an old =
beater pick up truck and a spiffy new one. If you can afford the new one =
fine. If not, fly & fix your Pawnee.

Roy B.





  #4  
Old October 16th 07, 05:32 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
fred
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 44
Default To Pawnee or not to Pawnee...that is the question...

On Oct 15, 8:19 pm, Roy Bourgeois
wrote:
Our club runs a pair of 235 Pawnees (a "D" with the full Hutch =
conversion and a stock "C" model). We also tow with a L-19 Bird Dog. =
Another club I teach for runs a 260 hp Pawnee with the constant speed =
prop and a third club in New England runs a pair of 235s also. I think =
Caesar Creek also runs Pawnees as does Bermuda High. There are several =
at Boulder CO and one nice one at Salida. All Pawnees have had a hard =
life before they came to be tow planes and it's pretty easy to spend =
enough on an engine overhaul, a fabric recover, and the attach point =
AD/STC so that you've got more into the plane than any stock Pawnee is =
worth. There are a few parts that are hard to find but an experienced =
mechanic can usually work around those. We tend to burn through =
starters and brake pads - but most tow planes do. The solo checkout is =
not a problem - they fly real honest and and are not hard to land, but =
the inability to do dual practice towing would make me not want to use =
it as my sole towplane. I've towed behind (but not piloted) the Husky =
at both Mifflin & Albert Lea - and it does a credible job as a =
towplane. I would only be concerned about the high initial cost and the =
insurance costs. It's a little like the price difference between an old =
beater pick up truck and a spiffy new one. If you can afford the new one =
fine. If not, fly & fix your Pawnee.

Roy B.


A log history of tow plane usage. The Husky is designed to carry a
load. When flown empty the cg is too far forward, needing up elevator
to maintain tow attitude...pure drag. I've flown them and towed behind
them. For the price of a new one, buy 4 more Pawnees.
Wing loading, Hp to wing loading climb over obstruction. Climb at high
density altitude, Pilot visability...rugged structure, easy of flying.
So many things favor the Pawnee...
Parts have not been a serious problem. They use so many common parts
of other Piper designs. PMA parts are readily available.

If you want to sell, call me. Fred

  #5  
Old October 16th 07, 12:33 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan G
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 245
Default To Pawnee or not to Pawnee...that is the question...

Why is it only old Pawnee vs. new Husky? Are there not used efficient
180hp tugs available in the US?


Dan

  #6  
Old October 16th 07, 01:54 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Martin Gregorie[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 276
Default To Pawnee or not to Pawnee...that is the question...

Dan G wrote:
Why is it only old Pawnee vs. new Husky? Are there not used efficient
180hp tugs available in the US?

I was up at Milfield with my Libelle a week ago, where they run three
tow planes: 150 Pawnee, 180 Supercub, 235 Pawnee. I couldn't see much
difference between the Supercub and the 235 Pawnee but the 150 Pawnee
had a much slower climb rate than either of the others: more like my
club's 160hp Rallye.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |
  #7  
Old October 17th 07, 02:01 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
309
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 85
Default To Pawnee or not to Pawnee...that is the question...

Nobody's mentioned the Scout (Bellanca 8GCBC), with a 180 HP mill
(fixed or constant speed props available).

It kinda' sounds like the club complainer just wants a two-seater to
carry a sightseeing companion -- er, I mean a student tug driver.

It would seem to me that a Scout is roughly equivalent to a Husky, at
less cost, perhaps.

Another consideration: can you run auto gas in the 235?

I've towed with a Pawnee burning auto gas -- worked great, even towing
watered up glass birds (1100 lbs takeoff weight) at high density
altitude (Lone Pine in July). I have fond memories of towing with
that tug, despite the fact it's one of very few airplanes that have
tried to kill me (an exhaust stack broke off INSIDE the
cowl...exciting day, some anesthesia -- 3 bloody mary's -- required).

I've towed banners with 8GCBC's. Banners are far less dangerous to
tow pilots than student glider pilots, but I think a Scout would work
fine. It's an honest airplane, though the extra gear length and span
(compared to its Citabria and Decathalon siblings) make it much more
prone to ground looping.

The Pawnee has much nicer handling qualities than the Scout (sorry,
never flown a Husky). I've also towed with a CallAir A-9, and it's
honest, but not as lithe as a Pawnee (with the same engine). They're
all covered with fabric, so that liability exists for all three.
They're all taildraggers -- so that's equal, regardless of whether you
consider that a liability or an asset (I vote for asset). The only
drawback I see is that the Pawnee only has one seat.

I still concurr with some of the other respondents: regardless of the
fact that you've got $35k invested in the Pawnee, KEEP IT, buy the
glider, and tell the Husky proponents to go buy their own.

-Pete
#309

  #8  
Old October 17th 07, 03:26 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
BT
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 995
Default To Pawnee or not to Pawnee...that is the question...

We have towed with 180HP Scout.. does not compare to 235HP Pawnee
We sold the Scout and bought the Pawnee, we tow from 3000ft MSL field with
110F summer temps
BT

"Dan G" wrote in message
oups.com...
Why is it only old Pawnee vs. new Husky? Are there not used efficient
180hp tugs available in the US?


Dan



  #9  
Old October 17th 07, 03:55 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Wayne Paul
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 905
Default To Pawnee or not to Pawnee...that is the question...

We have a 180HP Scout with a fixed pitch climb prop. We have found it
adequate for our needs, even when we fly out of Mackay, ID (5,900' MSL)
during our August regatta.
(http://www.soaridaho.com/photogaller...006/index.html)

Wayne
HP-14 "6F"
http://www.soaridaho.com/



"BT" wrote in message
...
We have towed with 180HP Scout.. does not compare to 235HP Pawnee
We sold the Scout and bought the Pawnee, we tow from 3000ft MSL field with
110F summer temps
BT

"Dan G" wrote in message
oups.com...
Why is it only old Pawnee vs. new Husky? Are there not used efficient
180hp tugs available in the US?


Dan





  #10  
Old October 17th 07, 04:08 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Frank Whiteley
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,099
Default To Pawnee or not to Pawnee...that is the question...

On Oct 16, 8:55 pm, "Wayne Paul" wrote:
We have a 180HP Scout with a fixed pitch climb prop. We have found it
adequate for our needs, even when we fly out of Mackay, ID (5,900' MSL)
during our August regatta.
(http://www.soaridaho.com/photogaller...006/index.html)

Wayne
HP-14 "6F"http://www.soaridaho.com/

"BT" wrote in message

I don't see any two-seater in the gallery photos. Anyone flying with
water there?

We had a 180hp Scout at 5500msl. It was very marginal on hot days
with water or heavy two-seaters and we used two hours fuel only as
full fuel was too heavy. Fuel tanks had recurring leaks. The wood
spar AD required extensive recurring inspections (there were metal
spar retrofit wings produced). Complete wiring harness was replaced.
We also had a U/C strut break, which took out the prop, engine, wing
tip, and horizontal, and availability. Never quite the same after
repairs. The Scout averaged $1000/month in upkeep and inspections at
commercial rates. Despite several objections, we replaced it with a
Pawnee 235D, later updated with the 250STC. Pawnee was not without
its problems. We looked at 40 Pawnees and went for what we considered
the best available on our budget. In retrospect we should have
budgeted about $10K more and considered a few more options. Plan on
buying the Pawnee a second time in the first 3-4 years until you get
it golden. IMVHO, no one sells a really good tow plane at an average
price. Cost aside, we've had high availability and get good
performance thanks to good management and tow pilot procedures. The
250STC is worth it.

IIRC, a Pawnee (with transponder) was reported towing well above it's
advertised operational ceiling this past summer on a really high tow.
I think our's, also transponder equipped, has been to 11,500msl a
couple of times on tow and still climbing okay.

180hp Scouts with metal spars are still being built. $132,900 with
constant speed prop. Probably a good choice for all around towing at
sites 3000MSL., that is, far more than adequate.

Frank Whiteley



 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Towing with a 150 hp Pawnee? [email protected] Soaring 5 November 22nd 06 02:32 PM
PA-25 PAWNEE Rafgsa Centre Soaring 2 March 3rd 05 04:13 AM
WTB Pawnee Prop Roy Bourgeois Soaring 1 November 2nd 04 07:57 PM
Pawnee Damien Dyer Soaring 2 November 2nd 04 06:35 PM
Pawnee hell Stewart Kissel Soaring 17 October 27th 04 04:15 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:54 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.