An Olive Branch

We want to be the best test takers in the world!

You know, everyone makes fun of this -- but what other option is there?
How else can you measure the overall success of an educational system than
by using standardized tests?

Everyone hates 'em -- but no one has come up with a viable alternative for
measuring what someone has learned.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:v8ykd.323917$wV.252939@attbi_s54...
[...]
Everyone hates 'em -- but no one has come up with a viable alternative for
measuring what someone has learned.

There are tests, and then there are tests. No is suggesting that all tests
are useless. But emphasizing education to the point of focusing only on
what it takes to pass a standardized multiple-choice exam fails the student.

Think about aviation. You (ought to) know as well as anyone else that
there's studying for the written exams, and then there's really knowing how
to fly an airplane. I wouldn't do away with the written exam, but to think
that a person taught strictly to pass the written exam would make a good
pilot is silly.

Testing is actually quite a reasonably well-studied science. There's a
whole art to creating a proper multiple choice exam, and most people
understand that to really test non-rote skills, multiple-choice exams don't
do as well as a number of other testing methods.

Pete

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:KIqkd.390673$D%.241613@attbi_s51...
But this -- along with the equally crazy insertion of non-English speaking
kids -- is an ENTIRELY different problem than "No Child Left Behind."

Way back in junior high school, two Vietnamese girls were placed into our
science class. They could not speak a stitch of English. The teacher
assigned me to one of the girls and another classmate to the other. We were
to help them complete the classwork. I felt bad for them, but I was also mad
because I couldn't get my work done. I compained to the teacher, but she
said her hands were tied. They passed the class, but only because we
basically did their work for them (they copied our papers).

Hopefully this type of thing doesn't happen anymore.

-Trent
PP-ASEL

"Trent Moorehead" wrote in message
...

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:KIqkd.390673$D%.241613@attbi_s51...
But this -- along with the equally crazy insertion of non-English
speaking
kids -- is an ENTIRELY different problem than "No Child Left Behind."

Way back in junior high school, two Vietnamese girls were placed into our
science class. They could not speak a stitch of English. The teacher
assigned me to one of the girls and another classmate to the other. We
were
to help them complete the classwork. I felt bad for them, but I was also
mad
because I couldn't get my work done. I compained to the teacher, but she
said her hands were tied. They passed the class, but only because we
basically did their work for them (they copied our papers).

Hopefully this type of thing doesn't happen anymore.

-Trent
PP-ASEL

Oh, but it does. It is force on the schools, with little funding to do more
than small amounts of individual help.
--
Jim in NC


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Jay Honeck wrote:

We want to be the best test takers in the world!

You know, everyone makes fun of this -- but what other option is there?
How else can you measure the overall success of an educational system than
by using standardized tests?

Everyone hates 'em -- but no one has come up with a viable alternative for
measuring what someone has learned.

No easy answers that's for sure. What I really object to is the emphasis
placed on these standardized tests. It seems they are the sole determinant
and they are too unreliable to be given so much weight.


--
Frank....H

We want to be the best test takers in the world!

You know, everyone makes fun of this -- but what other option is there?
How else can you measure the overall success of an educational system
than
by using standardized tests?

Everyone hates 'em -- but no one has come up with a viable alternative
for
measuring what someone has learned.

No easy answers that's for sure. What I really object to is the emphasis
placed on these standardized tests. It seems they are the sole determinant
and they are too unreliable to be given so much weight.

Okay, so...what other options *are* there? We're talking about millions
of students here -- how can we assess our national educational system
without some sort of standardized testing?

There are no other ways to fairly do it. And, if people are dead-set
against standardized testing, the only other viable alternative is to tell
the Feds to stay out of education altogether, and leave it up to the states.
But then you end up with a national disgrace like the East St. Louis
district... (And hundreds of others like it.)

There are no easy answers. No Child Left Behind is, at least, an attempt to
fix the system. But it's going to need some significant modifications to
make it work.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

We want to be the best test takers in the world!

You know, everyone makes fun of this -- but what other option is there?
How else can you measure the overall success of an educational system
than
by using standardized tests?

Everyone hates 'em -- but no one has come up with a viable alternative
for
measuring what someone has learned.

No easy answers that's for sure. What I really object to is the emphasis
placed on these standardized tests. It seems they are the sole determinant
and they are too unreliable to be given so much weight.

Okay, so...what other options *are* there? We're talking about millions
of students here -- how can we assess our national educational system
without some sort of standardized testing?

There are no other ways to fairly do it. And, if people are dead-set
against standardized testing, the only other viable alternative is to tell
the Feds to stay out of education altogether, and leave it up to the states.
But then you end up with a national disgrace like the East St. Louis
district... (And hundreds of others like it.)

There are no easy answers. No Child Left Behind is, at least, an attempt to
fix the system. But it's going to need some significant modifications to
make it work.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

For what it's worth, you may remember that piece of paper in your pocket that
grants you the right to fly had as one of its components a written test. Would
you want to flay as a passanger with someone as PIC who could NOT pass the
written? I'm talking about the general case, not some special case you might
use as an example.

The issue of testing, I think, has to do with test design, as opposed to
testing or not testing. A well designed test in fact measures what it's
supposed to, without too many false positives or false negatives. I would
rather have a panel of peer selected experts design a test to determine how
well for example a teacher's class is learning instead of hearing that
teacher's opinion, or even that teacher's supervisor's opinion.

Arm's length objective testing is pretty much like how the best musicans are
sometimes selected - they perform behind a screen for the review committee.

I know, I know, algebra should not be performed in public.

AJW wrote:

"Jay Honeck" wrote
"Frank....H" wrote


We want to be the best test takers in the world!

You know, everyone makes fun of this -- but what other option is there?
How else can you measure the overall success of an educational system
than
by using standardized tests?


snip


No easy answers that's for sure. What I really object to is the emphasis
placed on these standardized tests. It seems they are the sole
determinant and they are too unreliable to be given so much weight.

Okay, so...what other options *are* there? We're talking about millions
of students here -- how can we assess our national educational system
without some sort of standardized testing?

There are no other ways to fairly do it. And, if people are dead-set
against standardized testing, the only other viable alternative is to tell
the Feds to stay out of education altogether, and leave it up to the
states. But then you end up with a national disgrace like the East St.
Louis district... (And hundreds of others like it.)

There are no easy answers. No Child Left Behind is, at least, an attempt
to
fix the system. But it's going to need some significant modifications to
make it work.

For what it's worth, you may remember that piece of paper in your pocket
that grants you the right to fly had as one of its components a written
test. Would you want to flay as a passanger with someone as PIC who could
NOT pass the written? I'm talking about the general case, not some special
case you might use as an example.

The issue of testing, I think, has to do with test design, as opposed to
testing or not testing. A well designed test in fact measures what it's
supposed to, without too many false positives or false negatives. I would
rather have a panel of peer selected experts design a test to determine
how well for example a teacher's class is learning instead of hearing that
teacher's opinion, or even that teacher's supervisor's opinion.


You said it Jay, there are no easy answers. I would add there are no cheap
ones either. AJW uses the analogy of our pilot certificates and the written
portion of obtaining them. He goes on to point out the flaws of
standardized tests. I would expand it however to include the whole process.

So to answer to you question 'what other option is there' might include a
provision to evaluate the students in an additional way so as to augment
the standardized tests. A 'practical' standards test as it were.

Again, I don't advocate eliminating the tests altogether. I'm just very
concerned that there is too much emphasis put on the results of one test.
Especially given what we know about the flaws of such a test. I do believe
the federal government has a role though.

Part of their role should be to set some minimum standards regarding
equipment, class size, etc. A large part of what is wrong with the current
system is that it attempts to equate the results of learning opportunities
afforded a student in a school with plenty of computers and 1:25 teacher
student ratio with one limited to hand me down text books who talks to a
teacher once a week.

It isn't right to punish schools that are deemed to be doing poorly in the
absence of a way to measure whether or not they have the resources required
to meet those standards.


--
Frank....H

Part of their role should be to set some minimum standards regarding
equipment, class size, etc. A large part of what is wrong with the current
system is that it attempts to equate the results of learning opportunities
afforded a student in a school with plenty of computers and 1:25 teacher
student ratio with one limited to hand me down text books who talks to a
teacher once a week.

It isn't right to punish schools that are deemed to be doing poorly in the
absence of a way to measure whether or not they have the resources
required
to meet those standards.

As I understand "No Child Left Behind", the ultimate goal is that the
failing schools are "punished" by being eliminated.

This, as everyone would probably agree, is a good thing. Schools with
hand-me-down textbooks and students who talk with teachers but once a week
really don't qualify as "schools" in today's world. This threat of
elimination mimics the free market system that keeps businesses efficient,
and should (in theory) act to keep the under-performing schools in line, as
the local school districts will have to either respond with more funding, or
close the school.

I'm no expert, but it appears that this radical approach is what it's going
to take to repair many of our long-broken school systems.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jay Honeck wrote:

Part of their role should be to set some minimum standards regarding
equipment, class size, etc. A large part of what is wrong with the
current system is that it attempts to equate the results of learning
opportunities afforded a student in a school with plenty of computers and
1:25 teacher student ratio with one limited to hand me down text books
who talks to a teacher once a week.

It isn't right to punish schools that are deemed to be doing poorly in
the absence of a way to measure whether or not they have the resources
required
to meet those standards.

As I understand "No Child Left Behind", the ultimate goal is that the
failing schools are "punished" by being eliminated.

That's the way I understand it too. And as I said, if they meet some minimum
standards to begin with then there is a basis for it.

This, as everyone would probably agree, is a good thing. Schools with
hand-me-down textbooks and students who talk with teachers but once a week
really don't qualify as "schools" in today's world.

I wholeheartidly agree. But they do exist and are included in the test
results.

This threat of
elimination mimics the free market system that keeps businesses efficient,
and should (in theory) act to keep the under-performing schools in line,
as the local school districts will have to either respond with more
funding, or close the school.

Indeed that is the stated theory. Sounds good but under further scrutiny
there are some flaws.

The obvious one is funding. Without minimum standards to judge by we may not
know if additional funds will be effective. What if the local community
doesn't have the funds?

And what happens if we do close the school. If they didn't have enough money
to to make the existing one work where does the money for the replacement
come from? Or is there no replacement?

The biggest drawbacks I see are that there is no provision for identifying
_why_ a school is failing and relying on the vagaries of local funding.


I'm no expert, but it appears that this radical approach is what it's
going to take to repair many of our long-broken school systems.

Repair or eliminate? Some see this initiative as a way to expand the voucher
program and drive more children towards private (religious) schools at
public expense. Given that the provisions seem to make failure an almost
self fulfilling prophecy in some cases and the remedies are underfunded
give credence to that notion.

We all seem to agree that the school system needs help. Bring all schools up
to a minimum level and we can begin to identify what's wrong and how to fix
it.
--
Frank....H