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#1
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TSA rule 49 CFR Part 1552 (or its misinterpretation) is already preventing people from flying (even renters) (long)
This (10-19) afternoon, my flying club (Squadron 2 in San Jose)
emailed the following notice to all club members (long): -----------------------------QUOTE---------------------------------- The following message is divided into two parts; · To All Members · To CFI Members. In Summary as of 10/20/04: · ALL members that are US Citizens, must have additional documents scanned before their next flight. · ALL CFI's must be registered with the TSA as providers and be FAA enabled in order to teach at Squadron 2 Flying Club after 10/19/04 · ALL members that are not US Citizens must consult Club office Personnel ==================================== Effective 10/20/04 ==================================== To All: Per the recent FAA/TSA requirements, Squadron 2 Flying Club has expanded our documents database to include those items required by the FAA/TSA. All members are required to scan their documents PRIOR to their next flight (training or otherwise). The documents to be scanned are one of the following: For US Citizens: · Original or government-issued certificated birth certificate (US) for the US, for American Samoa, or Swains Island, plus a photo ID; or · Current, valid (not expired) US Passport (contains photo); or · Original US Nationalization Certificate w/ raised seal, plus a photo ID; or · Original US Citizenship & Immigration Services (USCIS) or Immigration & Naturalization Service (INS) form N-550 (or N-570, Certificate of Naturalization), plus a photo ID; or · Original certification of birth abroad w/raised seal or US Department of State Form FS-545 (or Form DS-1350), plus a photo ID; or · Original certificate of US citizenship w/raised seal, USCIS or INS Form N-560 (or Form N-561 or Form N-581, with photo ID; or · DOD or Federal Agency written certification attesting to the Federal employee's US citizenship or nationality, plus their government-issued photo ID. Club Office personnel must authorize and record the documents to be used to satisfy the above requirement. For non-US citizens: Please see Club office personnel for TSA clearing procedure. Due to each person's own unique situation, every non-US citizen Club Member will be handled on an individual basis in order to minimize inconvenience to those that may be temporarily deferred due to non training activities. To All CFIs: · When Signing up new members, you MUST verify they are US citizens and their documents must be approved by Club office personnel. · If the new sign up is NOT a US Citizen, their sign up must be handled by the Club office personnel. All CFIs teaching at Squadron 2 Flying Club a · required to be signed up within the TSA system · be authorized by the FAA within the TSA system. CFIs must prove compliance to Club office personnel before any further instruction by demonstrating they are authorized as "Providers" on the TSA website before teaching at Squadron 2 Flying Club after 10/19/04. You must be registered at https://www.flightschoolcandidates.gov/fsindex.html ============================== Note to All: Until further office personnel training takes place, the definition of "Club office personnel" is: · (club president's name deleted). This list will be will expanded next week. ============================== AGAIN in Summary as of 10/20/04: · ALL members that are US Citizens, must have additional documents scanned before their next flight. · ALL CFI's must be registered with the TSA as providers and be FAA enabled in order to teach at Squadron 2 Flying Club after 10/19/04 · ALL members that are not US Citizens must consult Club office Personnel ---------------------------UNQUOTE--------------------------- Upon reading this at work, I called a friend who also flies at Squadron 2. He drove to Squadron 2 and met a CFI there, who told him he is also grounded. In fact, everybody is grounded, even renters. Why? See above. The problem is, Squadron 2 is mis-applying 49 CFR Part 1552 (which only pertains to FLIGHT TRAINING OPERATIONS) to RENTAL operations. My friend, who is not a citizen but was born in Europe and has a "Green Card", has no intention at all to seek any more flight training (he just wants to continue to rent) and he is more than non-plussed by this sweeping and arbitrary interpretation of 49 CFR Part 1552. This mis-interpretation of a government rule which only pertains to FLIGHT TRAINING causes him monetary damage (the yearly club membership fee is some $350 and they don't allow him to fly now) and he is considering filing a lawsuit against Squadron 2. |
#2
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I'll agree... your flying club has gone over the top in the interpretation
of 49CFR1552 All CFIs should not be grounded.. and any rated pilot with an FAA certificate should still be able to rent and fly... how ever.. there is a question on "training", All CFIs do need to register with TSA as "providers of instruction", but only if they are providing instruction to the guy with the green card. All CFIs, and it appears the club president is taking the responsibility.. have to determine by the criteria listed if a STUDENT is a US Citizen or not. BT "Bay Aviator" wrote in message om... This (10-19) afternoon, my flying club (Squadron 2 in San Jose) emailed the following notice to all club members (long): -----------------------------QUOTE---------------------------------- The following message is divided into two parts; · To All Members · To CFI Members. In Summary as of 10/20/04: · ALL members that are US Citizens, must have additional documents scanned before their next flight. · ALL CFI's must be registered with the TSA as providers and be FAA enabled in order to teach at Squadron 2 Flying Club after 10/19/04 · ALL members that are not US Citizens must consult Club office Personnel ==================================== Effective 10/20/04 ==================================== To All: Per the recent FAA/TSA requirements, Squadron 2 Flying Club has expanded our documents database to include those items required by the FAA/TSA. All members are required to scan their documents PRIOR to their next flight (training or otherwise). The documents to be scanned are one of the following: For US Citizens: · Original or government-issued certificated birth certificate (US) for the US, for American Samoa, or Swains Island, plus a photo ID; or · Current, valid (not expired) US Passport (contains photo); or · Original US Nationalization Certificate w/ raised seal, plus a photo ID; or · Original US Citizenship & Immigration Services (USCIS) or Immigration & Naturalization Service (INS) form N-550 (or N-570, Certificate of Naturalization), plus a photo ID; or · Original certification of birth abroad w/raised seal or US Department of State Form FS-545 (or Form DS-1350), plus a photo ID; or · Original certificate of US citizenship w/raised seal, USCIS or INS Form N-560 (or Form N-561 or Form N-581, with photo ID; or · DOD or Federal Agency written certification attesting to the Federal employee's US citizenship or nationality, plus their government-issued photo ID. Club Office personnel must authorize and record the documents to be used to satisfy the above requirement. For non-US citizens: Please see Club office personnel for TSA clearing procedure. Due to each person's own unique situation, every non-US citizen Club Member will be handled on an individual basis in order to minimize inconvenience to those that may be temporarily deferred due to non training activities. To All CFIs: · When Signing up new members, you MUST verify they are US citizens and their documents must be approved by Club office personnel. · If the new sign up is NOT a US Citizen, their sign up must be handled by the Club office personnel. All CFIs teaching at Squadron 2 Flying Club a · required to be signed up within the TSA system · be authorized by the FAA within the TSA system. CFIs must prove compliance to Club office personnel before any further instruction by demonstrating they are authorized as "Providers" on the TSA website before teaching at Squadron 2 Flying Club after 10/19/04. You must be registered at https://www.flightschoolcandidates.gov/fsindex.html ============================== Note to All: Until further office personnel training takes place, the definition of "Club office personnel" is: · (club president's name deleted). This list will be will expanded next week. ============================== AGAIN in Summary as of 10/20/04: · ALL members that are US Citizens, must have additional documents scanned before their next flight. · ALL CFI's must be registered with the TSA as providers and be FAA enabled in order to teach at Squadron 2 Flying Club after 10/19/04 · ALL members that are not US Citizens must consult Club office Personnel ---------------------------UNQUOTE--------------------------- Upon reading this at work, I called a friend who also flies at Squadron 2. He drove to Squadron 2 and met a CFI there, who told him he is also grounded. In fact, everybody is grounded, even renters. Why? See above. The problem is, Squadron 2 is mis-applying 49 CFR Part 1552 (which only pertains to FLIGHT TRAINING OPERATIONS) to RENTAL operations. My friend, who is not a citizen but was born in Europe and has a "Green Card", has no intention at all to seek any more flight training (he just wants to continue to rent) and he is more than non-plussed by this sweeping and arbitrary interpretation of 49 CFR Part 1552. This mis-interpretation of a government rule which only pertains to FLIGHT TRAINING causes him monetary damage (the yearly club membership fee is some $350 and they don't allow him to fly now) and he is considering filing a lawsuit against Squadron 2. |
#3
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Our 4-owner partnership is incorporated as "Archer Aero Club". Anyone have
a clue as to whether or not we need to jump through the same hoops as a real flying club as far as proof of citizenship, etc. is concerned? Do we need recurrent security awareness training? -- Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways) I don't have to like Bush and Cheney (Or Kerry, for that matter) to love America "Bay Aviator" wrote in message om... This (10-19) afternoon, my flying club (Squadron 2 in San Jose) emailed the following notice to all club members (long): -----------------------------QUOTE---------------------------------- The following message is divided into two parts; · To All Members · To CFI Members. In Summary as of 10/20/04: · ALL members that are US Citizens, must have additional documents scanned before their next flight. · ALL CFI's must be registered with the TSA as providers and be FAA enabled in order to teach at Squadron 2 Flying Club after 10/19/04 · ALL members that are not US Citizens must consult Club office Personnel ==================================== Effective 10/20/04 ==================================== To All: Per the recent FAA/TSA requirements, Squadron 2 Flying Club has expanded our documents database to include those items required by the FAA/TSA. All members are required to scan their documents PRIOR to their next flight (training or otherwise). The documents to be scanned are one of the following: For US Citizens: · Original or government-issued certificated birth certificate (US) for the US, for American Samoa, or Swains Island, plus a photo ID; or · Current, valid (not expired) US Passport (contains photo); or · Original US Nationalization Certificate w/ raised seal, plus a photo ID; or · Original US Citizenship & Immigration Services (USCIS) or Immigration & Naturalization Service (INS) form N-550 (or N-570, Certificate of Naturalization), plus a photo ID; or · Original certification of birth abroad w/raised seal or US Department of State Form FS-545 (or Form DS-1350), plus a photo ID; or · Original certificate of US citizenship w/raised seal, USCIS or INS Form N-560 (or Form N-561 or Form N-581, with photo ID; or · DOD or Federal Agency written certification attesting to the Federal employee's US citizenship or nationality, plus their government-issued photo ID. Club Office personnel must authorize and record the documents to be used to satisfy the above requirement. For non-US citizens: Please see Club office personnel for TSA clearing procedure. Due to each person's own unique situation, every non-US citizen Club Member will be handled on an individual basis in order to minimize inconvenience to those that may be temporarily deferred due to non training activities. To All CFIs: · When Signing up new members, you MUST verify they are US citizens and their documents must be approved by Club office personnel. · If the new sign up is NOT a US Citizen, their sign up must be handled by the Club office personnel. All CFIs teaching at Squadron 2 Flying Club a · required to be signed up within the TSA system · be authorized by the FAA within the TSA system. CFIs must prove compliance to Club office personnel before any further instruction by demonstrating they are authorized as "Providers" on the TSA website before teaching at Squadron 2 Flying Club after 10/19/04. You must be registered at https://www.flightschoolcandidates.gov/fsindex.html ============================== Note to All: Until further office personnel training takes place, the definition of "Club office personnel" is: · (club president's name deleted). This list will be will expanded next week. ============================== AGAIN in Summary as of 10/20/04: · ALL members that are US Citizens, must have additional documents scanned before their next flight. · ALL CFI's must be registered with the TSA as providers and be FAA enabled in order to teach at Squadron 2 Flying Club after 10/19/04 · ALL members that are not US Citizens must consult Club office Personnel ---------------------------UNQUOTE--------------------------- Upon reading this at work, I called a friend who also flies at Squadron 2. He drove to Squadron 2 and met a CFI there, who told him he is also grounded. In fact, everybody is grounded, even renters. Why? See above. The problem is, Squadron 2 is mis-applying 49 CFR Part 1552 (which only pertains to FLIGHT TRAINING OPERATIONS) to RENTAL operations. My friend, who is not a citizen but was born in Europe and has a "Green Card", has no intention at all to seek any more flight training (he just wants to continue to rent) and he is more than non-plussed by this sweeping and arbitrary interpretation of 49 CFR Part 1552. This mis-interpretation of a government rule which only pertains to FLIGHT TRAINING causes him monetary damage (the yearly club membership fee is some $350 and they don't allow him to fly now) and he is considering filing a lawsuit against Squadron 2. |
#4
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I guess not, now that I've read the full text of Bay Aviator's post. Looks
like this SHOULD only affect flight training, and non of us is a CFI. -- Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways) I don't have to like Bush and Cheney (Or Kerry, for that matter) to love America "Bob Chilcoat" wrote in message ... Our 4-owner partnership is incorporated as "Archer Aero Club". Anyone have a clue as to whether or not we need to jump through the same hoops as a real flying club as far as proof of citizenship, etc. is concerned? Do we need recurrent security awareness training? -- Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways) I don't have to like Bush and Cheney (Or Kerry, for that matter) to love America "Bay Aviator" wrote in message om... This (10-19) afternoon, my flying club (Squadron 2 in San Jose) emailed the following notice to all club members (long): -----------------------------QUOTE---------------------------------- The following message is divided into two parts; · To All Members · To CFI Members. In Summary as of 10/20/04: · ALL members that are US Citizens, must have additional documents scanned before their next flight. · ALL CFI's must be registered with the TSA as providers and be FAA enabled in order to teach at Squadron 2 Flying Club after 10/19/04 · ALL members that are not US Citizens must consult Club office Personnel ==================================== Effective 10/20/04 ==================================== To All: Per the recent FAA/TSA requirements, Squadron 2 Flying Club has expanded our documents database to include those items required by the FAA/TSA. All members are required to scan their documents PRIOR to their next flight (training or otherwise). The documents to be scanned are one of the following: For US Citizens: · Original or government-issued certificated birth certificate (US) for the US, for American Samoa, or Swains Island, plus a photo ID; or · Current, valid (not expired) US Passport (contains photo); or · Original US Nationalization Certificate w/ raised seal, plus a photo ID; or · Original US Citizenship & Immigration Services (USCIS) or Immigration & Naturalization Service (INS) form N-550 (or N-570, Certificate of Naturalization), plus a photo ID; or · Original certification of birth abroad w/raised seal or US Department of State Form FS-545 (or Form DS-1350), plus a photo ID; or · Original certificate of US citizenship w/raised seal, USCIS or INS Form N-560 (or Form N-561 or Form N-581, with photo ID; or · DOD or Federal Agency written certification attesting to the Federal employee's US citizenship or nationality, plus their government-issued photo ID. Club Office personnel must authorize and record the documents to be used to satisfy the above requirement. For non-US citizens: Please see Club office personnel for TSA clearing procedure. Due to each person's own unique situation, every non-US citizen Club Member will be handled on an individual basis in order to minimize inconvenience to those that may be temporarily deferred due to non training activities. To All CFIs: · When Signing up new members, you MUST verify they are US citizens and their documents must be approved by Club office personnel. · If the new sign up is NOT a US Citizen, their sign up must be handled by the Club office personnel. All CFIs teaching at Squadron 2 Flying Club a · required to be signed up within the TSA system · be authorized by the FAA within the TSA system. CFIs must prove compliance to Club office personnel before any further instruction by demonstrating they are authorized as "Providers" on the TSA website before teaching at Squadron 2 Flying Club after 10/19/04. You must be registered at https://www.flightschoolcandidates.gov/fsindex.html ============================== Note to All: Until further office personnel training takes place, the definition of "Club office personnel" is: · (club president's name deleted). This list will be will expanded next week. ============================== AGAIN in Summary as of 10/20/04: · ALL members that are US Citizens, must have additional documents scanned before their next flight. · ALL CFI's must be registered with the TSA as providers and be FAA enabled in order to teach at Squadron 2 Flying Club after 10/19/04 · ALL members that are not US Citizens must consult Club office Personnel ---------------------------UNQUOTE--------------------------- Upon reading this at work, I called a friend who also flies at Squadron 2. He drove to Squadron 2 and met a CFI there, who told him he is also grounded. In fact, everybody is grounded, even renters. Why? See above. The problem is, Squadron 2 is mis-applying 49 CFR Part 1552 (which only pertains to FLIGHT TRAINING OPERATIONS) to RENTAL operations. My friend, who is not a citizen but was born in Europe and has a "Green Card", has no intention at all to seek any more flight training (he just wants to continue to rent) and he is more than non-plussed by this sweeping and arbitrary interpretation of 49 CFR Part 1552. This mis-interpretation of a government rule which only pertains to FLIGHT TRAINING causes him monetary damage (the yearly club membership fee is some $350 and they don't allow him to fly now) and he is considering filing a lawsuit against Squadron 2. |
#6
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And I thought *I* was a power-hungry glory hound as the V.P. of my club.
But your president really sounds like he is trying to throw his weight around on this one. He's really got me beat! --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.778 / Virus Database: 525 - Release Date: 10/15/2004 |
#7
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Geoffrey,
On the assumption that your use of the words "your president" imply that you are not a citizen of the USA which possibility is perhaps supported by the spelling of your name, I would explain that the TSA is an agency of the executive branch of the US government. While the president is the head of that branch he does not personally make 99.9 +% of the decisions personally. Thus the "power-hungry" epithet may apply to you as regards your personal actions in your club but would not be supported by this agency action. Your ignorance, if it exists, is clearly justifiable since many of the American hoi polloi believe that the president can institute a draft - an action which can only be done by the legislative branch of the US Government. This is, of course, different from the British model in which the PM heads both the legislative and executive elements of the government. Daniel P.S. I personally don't agree with this action by the TSA. "Geoffrey Barnes" wrote in message nk.net... And I thought *I* was a power-hungry glory hound as the V.P. of my club. But your president really sounds like he is trying to throw his weight around on this one. He's really got me beat! --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.778 / Virus Database: 525 - Release Date: 10/15/2004 |
#8
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Christ Daniel, he was talking about the president of his damn flying club.
Get a grip. "Daniel L. Lieberman" wrote in message ... Geoffrey, On the assumption that your use of the words "your president" imply that you are not a citizen of the USA which possibility is perhaps supported by the spelling of your name, I would explain that the TSA is an agency of the executive branch of the US government. While the president is the head of that branch he does not personally make 99.9 +% of the decisions personally. Thus the "power-hungry" epithet may apply to you as regards your personal actions in your club but would not be supported by this agency action. Your ignorance, if it exists, is clearly justifiable since many of the American hoi polloi believe that the president can institute a draft - an action which can only be done by the legislative branch of the US Government. This is, of course, different from the British model in which the PM heads both the legislative and executive elements of the government. Daniel P.S. I personally don't agree with this action by the TSA. "Geoffrey Barnes" wrote in message nk.net... And I thought *I* was a power-hungry glory hound as the V.P. of my club. But your president really sounds like he is trying to throw his weight around on this one. He's really got me beat! --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.778 / Virus Database: 525 - Release Date: 10/15/2004 |
#9
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Gig,
Read again carefully. First) he says "your president" if it was the president of HIS flying club he should or would have said MY president. Further he indicates that HE is a "power hungry..." that would not seem likely if the president of his flying club was of a similar ilk. Second) this thread is about the TSA. In any event I have accomplished my goal of explaining to a probably UK or ANZUS citizen the nature of the US government and see nothing to be gained by further continuing this thread. Daniel "Gig Giacona" wrote in message ... Christ Daniel, he was talking about the president of his damn flying club. Get a grip. "Daniel L. Lieberman" wrote in message ... Geoffrey, On the assumption that your use of the words "your president" imply that you are not a citizen of the USA which possibility is perhaps supported by the spelling of your name, I would explain that the TSA is an agency of the executive branch of the US government. While the president is the head of that branch he does not personally make 99.9 +% of the decisions personally. Thus the "power-hungry" epithet may apply to you as regards your personal actions in your club but would not be supported by this agency action. Your ignorance, if it exists, is clearly justifiable since many of the American hoi polloi believe that the president can institute a draft - an action which can only be done by the legislative branch of the US Government. This is, of course, different from the British model in which the PM heads both the legislative and executive elements of the government. Daniel P.S. I personally don't agree with this action by the TSA. "Geoffrey Barnes" wrote in message nk.net... And I thought *I* was a power-hungry glory hound as the V.P. of my club. But your president really sounds like he is trying to throw his weight around on this one. He's really got me beat! --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.778 / Virus Database: 525 - Release Date: 10/15/2004 |
#10
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No, Daniel... He was responding to "Bay Aviators" post about Squadron 2's
over the top response to the rule. Here's the Google of the thread. http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&threadm=Xns958867C1DC47Casarangan yahoocom%4038.119.106.5&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3DRe%253A%2BTSA%2Brule%2B49%2BCFR%2BPar t%2B1552%2B(or%2Bits%2Bmisinterpretation)%2Bis%2Ba lready%2Bpreventing%2Bpeople%2Bfrom%2Bflying%2B(ev en%2Brenters)%2B%2B%2B(long)%26hl%3Den%26btnG%3DGo ogle%2BSearch or the tinyURL version http://tinyurl.com/67rcu "Daniel L. Lieberman" wrote in message ... Gig, Read again carefully. First) he says "your president" if it was the president of HIS flying club he should or would have said MY president. Further he indicates that HE is a "power hungry..." that would not seem likely if the president of his flying club was of a similar ilk. Second) this thread is about the TSA. In any event I have accomplished my goal of explaining to a probably UK or ANZUS citizen the nature of the US government and see nothing to be gained by further continuing this thread. Daniel "Gig Giacona" wrote in message ... Christ Daniel, he was talking about the president of his damn flying club. Get a grip. "Daniel L. Lieberman" wrote in message ... Geoffrey, On the assumption that your use of the words "your president" imply that you are not a citizen of the USA which possibility is perhaps supported by the spelling of your name, I would explain that the TSA is an agency of the executive branch of the US government. While the president is the head of that branch he does not personally make 99.9 +% of the decisions personally. Thus the "power-hungry" epithet may apply to you as regards your personal actions in your club but would not be supported by this agency action. Your ignorance, if it exists, is clearly justifiable since many of the American hoi polloi believe that the president can institute a draft - an action which can only be done by the legislative branch of the US Government. This is, of course, different from the British model in which the PM heads both the legislative and executive elements of the government. Daniel P.S. I personally don't agree with this action by the TSA. "Geoffrey Barnes" wrote in message nk.net... And I thought *I* was a power-hungry glory hound as the V.P. of my club. But your president really sounds like he is trying to throw his weight around on this one. He's really got me beat! --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.778 / Virus Database: 525 - Release Date: 10/15/2004 |
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