Starting a 135 op?

On Feb 20, 4:40*pm, Marty Shapiro
wrote:
Dan wrote in news:8e803d10-c44e-44da-bf45-
:





On Feb 20, 5:26*am, Denny wrote:

Three years ago my mechanic/fbo put a ton of money into an Aztec,
hired a pilot, hired a firm to create the books, had the FAA in on 3
different trips inspecting the plane, the office, the books, taking
the pilot for a check ride, yadda, yadda... Then once approved to
operate 135 he began bidding for jobs... He found that the competition
was playing hardball, even running a Learjet on jobs for less than he
was willing to do with the Aztec, they often bid jobs for barely more
than their fuel costs apparently losing money to establish rapport
with the shipper... The competitors took jobs where they would be
deadheading back after the run and still underbid him, plus they beat
him to the punch by taking the run a half day sooner because he was
still trying to find cargo for both directions... *In the end he went
belly up...

If you are going to succeed you will do most of the flying yourself,
you will need to be an A&P to hold your maintenance costs down, you
will be ready to live out of the airplane yes, sleep in it for a
week at a time as you hopscotch across the country taking cargo from a
to b, then deadheading to c for a run to d, and so on, you will likely
have to get by with only insurance for for PL & PD and take the chance
you won't destroy the plane which means your family will have to
front the money for the plane instead of a bank loan ...
Other than that, it should be a piece of cake!

denny

Wow! That sounds like quite a nightmare. *Apparently aviation and
successful entrepreneurialism do NOT go hand in hand. You paint a
picture so bleak (and it might well be true) that it makes me wonder
why anyone goes into aviation.

I have a good paying job now, but I'd like to do something more fun
when I get to a point in my life I can work and not be concerned with
making top dollar (i.e. 10-20 years out). *I'm trying to plan out how
I might prepare for doing something in aviation.

Currently, when thinking about what I'd like to do when I "retire" I
think I'd like to fly a lot. *However, it is expensive so it would be
better to get paid to do it rather than spend big money on a hobby.
I'm not sure the CFI route is for me. *I prefer cross country flights
with a definate destination.

*--Dan

I read several years ago that the combined record of all airlines since day
one of commercial aviation shows a net loss. *As they say the only way to
become a millionaire in aviation is to start with a few billion.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

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Somehow Southwest and Netjets are doing pretty good though, so with
good management it should be possible to make money. Not that I claim
to have the magic bullet of course.

--Dan

On Feb 20, 4:02*pm, Dan wrote:
On Feb 20, 4:40*pm, Marty Shapiro
wrote:





Dan wrote in news:8e803d10-c44e-44da-bf45-
:

On Feb 20, 5:26*am, Denny wrote:

Three years ago my mechanic/fbo put a ton of money into an Aztec,
hired a pilot, hired a firm to create the books, had the FAA in on 3
different trips inspecting the plane, the office, the books, taking
the pilot for a check ride, yadda, yadda... Then once approved to
operate 135 he began bidding for jobs... He found that the competition
was playing hardball, even running a Learjet on jobs for less than he
was willing to do with the Aztec, they often bid jobs for barely more
than their fuel costs apparently losing money to establish rapport
with the shipper... The competitors took jobs where they would be
deadheading back after the run and still underbid him, plus they beat
him to the punch by taking the run a half day sooner because he was
still trying to find cargo for both directions... *In the end he went
belly up...

If you are going to succeed you will do most of the flying yourself,
you will need to be an A&P to hold your maintenance costs down, you
will be ready to live out of the airplane yes, sleep in it for a
week at a time as you hopscotch across the country taking cargo from a
to b, then deadheading to c for a run to d, and so on, you will likely
have to get by with only insurance for for PL & PD and take the chance
you won't destroy the plane which means your family will have to
front the money for the plane instead of a bank loan ...
Other than that, it should be a piece of cake!

denny

Wow! That sounds like quite a nightmare. *Apparently aviation and
successful entrepreneurialism do NOT go hand in hand. You paint a
picture so bleak (and it might well be true) that it makes me wonder
why anyone goes into aviation.

I have a good paying job now, but I'd like to do something more fun
when I get to a point in my life I can work and not be concerned with
making top dollar (i.e. 10-20 years out). *I'm trying to plan out how
I might prepare for doing something in aviation.

Currently, when thinking about what I'd like to do when I "retire" I
think I'd like to fly a lot. *However, it is expensive so it would be
better to get paid to do it rather than spend big money on a hobby.
I'm not sure the CFI route is for me. *I prefer cross country flights
with a definate destination.

*--Dan

I read several years ago that the combined record of all airlines since day
one of commercial aviation shows a net loss. *As they say the only way to
become a millionaire in aviation is to start with a few billion.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Somehow Southwest and Netjets are doing pretty good though, so with
good management it should be possible to make money. Not that I claim
to have the magic bullet of course.

Interesting that Southwest also doesn't have a defined benefit
retirement plan, and instead has a 401K like the rest of us. I'm sure
that helps.

-Robert

On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 14:46:03 -0800 (PST), "Robert M. Gary"
wrote in
:

On Feb 20, 1:40*pm, Larry Dighera wrote:
On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 12:37:49 -0800 (PST), Dan wrote in
:

Currently, when thinking about what I'd like to do when I "retire" I
think I'd like to fly a lot. *However, it is expensive so it would be
better to get paid to do it rather than spend big money on a hobby.

If your motivation is revenue generation, consider real estate
investment. *If you start buying foreclosures, and put enough equity
in them so that the rental income makes the mortgage payment, you will
be able to leverage your equity investment's appreciation by something
like 80%. *

What about your equity? Doesn't it deserve a return too?

Huh? That's the whole point.

Let's use $100,000 as the home price. If the real estate appreciates
at 10% annually, with a 20% down payment (the equity), you are able to
realize a gain of, not 10% of $20,000 ($2,000), but 10% of $100,000
($10,000) annually.

You could put
it in eTrade savings account and get 4% FDIC insured so why put it
into real-estate hoping to just get your payment out of it??

For the appreciation in property value. The rent payment just covers
your costs (approximately) over the life of the investment.

Real estate goes up and down, but over the long run, .... With the
rate of population growth worldwide, I don't see how it can miss. The
only true downside is the lack of liquidity, but that's not really an
issue for retirement income.

On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 16:16:30 -0800 (PST), "Robert M. Gary"
wrote:


Interesting that Southwest also doesn't have a defined benefit
retirement plan, and instead has a 401K like the rest of us. I'm sure
that helps.

Wasn't a good part of it having real cheap fuel by long term options
which have also now expired?

I have a friend that has been doing this for many years. It probably
helps that he has over 20,000 hours and has held his 135 certificate,
accident free, for 20 years. I don't think the FAA is the biggest
thing to overcome, there are some canned 135 ops manuals you can get.
What may ultimately kill my friend's 135 operation is the drug
requirements. He currently pays to have his main IA receive regular,
FAA approved, drug screening. However, every other mechanic that works
on the plane needs the same, including the avionics shop. I was down
at the avionics shop and they said they are considering dropping their
drug testing program for their 135 customers (only my friend now).
Their concern is that if they are missing one poster on their employee
posting board the FAA can fine them $35,000. They said that would put
them out of business and its just not worth it for a couple 135
customers.

-Robert, CFII


All repair stations have to have a drug testing 'policy' in place to keep the station certified. Isn't the avionics shop
a repair station?

On Feb 20, 5:33*pm, "Blueskies" wrote:

All repair stations have to have a drug testing 'policy' in place to keep the station certified. Isn't the avionics shop
a repair station?

They said the testing (or at least the posters) were specific to the
135.

-Robert

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
...
On Feb 20, 5:33 pm, "Blueskies" wrote:

All repair stations have to have a drug testing 'policy' in place to keep the station certified. Isn't the avionics
shop
a repair station?

They said the testing (or at least the posters) were specific to the
135.

-Robert

I cannot find anything under part 145 about required drug testing. I'll bet you are right it is limited to stations that
support 135/121 air carriers...

On Feb 20, 5:41*pm, Larry Dighera wrote:
On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 14:46:03 -0800 (PST), "Robert M. Gary"
wrote in
:

On Feb 20, 1:40*pm, Larry Dighera wrote:
On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 12:37:49 -0800 (PST), Dan wrote in
:

Currently, when thinking about what I'd like to do when I "retire" I
think I'd like to fly a lot. *However, it is expensive so it would be
better to get paid to do it rather than spend big money on a hobby.

If your motivation is revenue generation, consider real estate
investment. *If you start buying foreclosures, and put enough equity
in them so that the rental income makes the mortgage payment, you will
be able to leverage your equity investment's appreciation by something
like 80%. *

What about your equity? Doesn't it deserve a return too?

Huh? *That's the whole point. *

Let's use $100,000 as the home price. *If the real estate appreciates
at 10% annually, with a 20% down payment (the equity), you are able to
realize a gain of, not 10% of $20,000 ($2,000), but 10% of $100,000
($10,000) annually.

You could put
it in eTrade savings account and get 4% FDIC insured so why put it
into real-estate hoping to just get your payment out of it??

For the appreciation in property value. *The rent payment just covers
your costs (approximately) over the life of the investment. *

Real estate goes up and down, but over the long run, .... *With the
rate of population growth worldwide, I don't see how it can miss. *The
only true downside is the lack of liquidity, but that's not really an
issue for retirement income.

The long term average for real estate appreciation is 5%, after
accounting for inflation.

--Dan

On Feb 20, 5:16*pm, "Robert M. Gary" wrote:
On Feb 20, 4:02*pm, Dan wrote:





On Feb 20, 4:40*pm, Marty Shapiro
wrote:

Dan wrote in news:8e803d10-c44e-44da-bf45-
:

On Feb 20, 5:26*am, Denny wrote:

Three years ago my mechanic/fbo put a ton of money into an Aztec,
hired a pilot, hired a firm to create the books, had the FAA in on 3
different trips inspecting the plane, the office, the books, taking
the pilot for a check ride, yadda, yadda... Then once approved to
operate 135 he began bidding for jobs... He found that the competition
was playing hardball, even running a Learjet on jobs for less than he
was willing to do with the Aztec, they often bid jobs for barely more
than their fuel costs apparently losing money to establish rapport
with the shipper... The competitors took jobs where they would be
deadheading back after the run and still underbid him, plus they beat
him to the punch by taking the run a half day sooner because he was
still trying to find cargo for both directions... *In the end he went
belly up...

If you are going to succeed you will do most of the flying yourself,
you will need to be an A&P to hold your maintenance costs down, you
will be ready to live out of the airplane yes, sleep in it for a
week at a time as you hopscotch across the country taking cargo from a
to b, then deadheading to c for a run to d, and so on, you will likely
have to get by with only insurance for for PL & PD and take the chance
you won't destroy the plane which means your family will have to
front the money for the plane instead of a bank loan ...
Other than that, it should be a piece of cake!

denny

Wow! That sounds like quite a nightmare. *Apparently aviation and
successful entrepreneurialism do NOT go hand in hand. You paint a
picture so bleak (and it might well be true) that it makes me wonder
why anyone goes into aviation.

I have a good paying job now, but I'd like to do something more fun
when I get to a point in my life I can work and not be concerned with
making top dollar (i.e. 10-20 years out). *I'm trying to plan out how
I might prepare for doing something in aviation.

Currently, when thinking about what I'd like to do when I "retire" I
think I'd like to fly a lot. *However, it is expensive so it would be
better to get paid to do it rather than spend big money on a hobby.
I'm not sure the CFI route is for me. *I prefer cross country flights
with a definate destination.

*--Dan

I read several years ago that the combined record of all airlines since day
one of commercial aviation shows a net loss. *As they say the only way to
become a millionaire in aviation is to start with a few billion.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Somehow Southwest and Netjets are doing pretty good though, so with
good management it should be possible to make money. Not that I claim
to have the magic bullet of course.

Interesting that Southwest also doesn't have a defined benefit
retirement plan, and instead has a 401K like the rest of us. I'm sure
that helps.

-Robert- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Virtually no jobs in the corporate world these days have a pension. I
don't feel sorry for the Southwest pilots.

--Dan

On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 18:40:15 -0800 (PST), Dan wrote in
:


The long term average for real estate appreciation is 5%, after
accounting for inflation.


To do as well in the stock market it would have to yield 25%
appreciation, unless you're buying on margin.....