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Which 18m FES sailplane to buy?



 
 
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  #1  
Old December 8th 15, 11:36 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Posts: 48
Default Which 18m FES sailplane to buy?

I'm considering the purchase of an 18m FES equipped sailplane, and would like to hear thoughts and opinions about the various options available. I'm seeking a cross country machine with long legs and a highly reliable sustainer. An 18m FES sailplane should fit that requirement nicely.

I'm a somewhat green pilot, but in the year or so before a new glider could be manufactured and delivered, I will have accumulated some more experience in my club's DG-505 and DG-1000. I have eliminated the Ventus 2cx as a possibility, due to the aircraft's reputation as being unsuitable for low-time pilots. In the 18m class, that leaves the following gliders that are available with a FES system:

- Discus 2c
- Lak-17B
- HpH 304S Shark

All three appear to have similar performance, as best I can tell from published data. I don't plan to be racing any time soon, so a difference of a few points in best glide ratio is not significant to me.

According to the flight reports that I've read, all three feature docile handling that should not be a problem for a low-time pilot. The Lak-17B and HpH Shark have flaps. I have thoroughly researched the apparently controversial issue of whether flapped ships are suitable for low-time pilots, and am convinced that they are more of an asset than a liability.

In the interests of staying on topic, let's not make this thread about flaps or the FES. These topics have already been thoroughly discussed on RAS. Please start a new thread or add to an old thread if you wish to discuss further.

I'll list some of the pros and cons of each ship that I can see, but would love to hear if anyone disagrees with them, or has anything to add.

Discus 2c
- Pros: Reputation for excellent handling. Optional GRS. Possibly higher resale value and ease of selling due to its popularity.
- Cons: No flaps.

Lak-17B
- Pros: Lower cost (better value) than the other two. Half the lead time of the other two (6 vs 12 mo).
- Cons: No safety cockpit.

HpH Shark
- Pros: Good looking (purely my opinion).
- Cons: Every flight review I've read says it handles well but... every reviewer had at least one negative thing to say about the handling. Hard to draw conclusions, but some doubt as been cast in my mind.

By now it may be clear which one I'm leaning toward. However, I wouldn't have posted this if my mind wasn't open to others' opinions, so I welcome and appreciate your thoughts. In the end, the decision will come down to what's most important to me: safety and handling. I guess what I'm really seeking is a double-check on my thinking regarding this rather significant purchase.

Cheers,
Ben



  #2  
Old December 8th 15, 11:39 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andrzej Kobus
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Posts: 585
Default Which 18m FES sailplane to buy?

On Tuesday, December 8, 2015 at 5:36:06 PM UTC-5, wrote:
I'm considering the purchase of an 18m FES equipped sailplane, and would like to hear thoughts and opinions about the various options available. I'm seeking a cross country machine with long legs and a highly reliable sustainer. An 18m FES sailplane should fit that requirement nicely.

I'm a somewhat green pilot, but in the year or so before a new glider could be manufactured and delivered, I will have accumulated some more experience in my club's DG-505 and DG-1000. I have eliminated the Ventus 2cx as a possibility, due to the aircraft's reputation as being unsuitable for low-time pilots. In the 18m class, that leaves the following gliders that are available with a FES system:

- Discus 2c
- Lak-17B
- HpH 304S Shark

All three appear to have similar performance, as best I can tell from published data. I don't plan to be racing any time soon, so a difference of a few points in best glide ratio is not significant to me.

According to the flight reports that I've read, all three feature docile handling that should not be a problem for a low-time pilot. The Lak-17B and HpH Shark have flaps. I have thoroughly researched the apparently controversial issue of whether flapped ships are suitable for low-time pilots, and am convinced that they are more of an asset than a liability.

In the interests of staying on topic, let's not make this thread about flaps or the FES. These topics have already been thoroughly discussed on RAS. Please start a new thread or add to an old thread if you wish to discuss further.

I'll list some of the pros and cons of each ship that I can see, but would love to hear if anyone disagrees with them, or has anything to add.

Discus 2c
- Pros: Reputation for excellent handling. Optional GRS. Possibly higher resale value and ease of selling due to its popularity.
- Cons: No flaps.

Lak-17B
- Pros: Lower cost (better value) than the other two. Half the lead time of the other two (6 vs 12 mo).
- Cons: No safety cockpit.

HpH Shark
- Pros: Good looking (purely my opinion).
- Cons: Every flight review I've read says it handles well but... every reviewer had at least one negative thing to say about the handling. Hard to draw conclusions, but some doubt as been cast in my mind.

By now it may be clear which one I'm leaning toward. However, I wouldn't have posted this if my mind wasn't open to others' opinions, so I welcome and appreciate your thoughts. In the end, the decision will come down to what's most important to me: safety and handling. I guess what I'm really seeking is a double-check on my thinking regarding this rather significant purchase.

Cheers,
Ben


What about Ventus?
  #3  
Old December 9th 15, 12:10 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Casey Cox
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Posts: 42
Default Which 18m FES sailplane to buy?

I think all the new generation gliders are sweet.

I think LAK and Alisport were the first manufactures to have the FES installed, and of course Alisport is 13.5m.

I believe the 13.5m gliders are getting high L/D and it seems that FES to them is Front Electric Self-Launch vs the 15-18m FES Front Electric Sustainer.

It seems now the German glider manufactures are installing FES and I think the rest of them as well all manufactures will follow.

One glider you did not list is the Albastar 18G. http://www.gliders-albastar.com/proj...lider-as-18-m/

I can understand why one would want a specific glider if one was planning to compete, but with so many more advantages of having a 13.5m, I wonder why more people do not consider them.
  #4  
Old December 9th 15, 12:23 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Which 18m FES sailplane to buy?

On Tuesday, December 8, 2015 at 3:10:25 PM UTC-8, Casey Cox wrote:
One glider you did not list is the Albastar 18G. http://www.gliders-albastar.com/proj...lider-as-18-m/


Thanks for the link to the Albastar 18 Gen. I hadn't seen that before. However, it looks like it's not close to being available, right?
  #5  
Old December 9th 15, 12:50 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dave Springford
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Posts: 320
Default Which 18m FES sailplane to buy?



I have not flown an HpH, but have seen one up close while doing some instrument installations and I was very impressed with the craftsmanship and attention to detail in the Shark. From that perspective it is really worth taking a serious look at the Shark.

I have flown the Discus 2cT and it is an amazing flying machine - you couldn't ask for nicer handling.
  #6  
Old December 9th 15, 02:50 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Casey Cox
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Posts: 42
Default Which 18m FES sailplane to buy?



Thanks for the link to the Albastar 18 Gen. I hadn't seen that before. However, it looks like it's not close to being available, right?


It was listed on the FES web site. Contact those guys and they should know what manufactures are in the process of installing and getting cert.

http://www.front-electric-sustainer....stributors.php

FES is a game changer. Any manufacturer that is not incorporating will be left out in a few years. No more worry with line break, poor judgement, or with the learning curve of guessing where the next best thermal is....just turn a knob and you have power. No substitute for being safe...just a tool that is there in case.
  #7  
Old December 9th 15, 03:07 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bob Whelan[_3_]
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Posts: 400
Default Which 18m FES sailplane to buy?

I'm sorry - maybe northeastern Colorado's 60F temperature triggered early
spring fever, but I found the first two posts in a new thread today humorous!

I'm considering the purchase of an 18m FES equipped sailplane,

Snip...
I have eliminated the Ventus
2cx as a possibility, due to the aircraft's reputation as being
unsuitable for low-time pilots. In the 18m class, that leaves the
following gliders that are available with a FES system:

- Discus 2c - Lak-17B - HpH 304S Shark

Snip...

What about Ventus?


Bob - I'll be hibernating by the weekend per the forecast - W.

P.S. Have fun deciding! The buying disease can be almost as much fun as the
flying cure.
  #8  
Old December 9th 15, 05:32 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Renny[_2_]
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Posts: 241
Default Which 18m FES sailplane to buy?

Ben,
OK..I guess I need to throw in my 2 cents...I currently own a LAK-17B FES. I owned a Discus 2b and I also owned a 304CZ....

First, I do not believe you will go wrong with any of these three excellent ships. My take IMHO:

1. I've owned four ships without flaps and two ships with flaps and to be honest, I will never own another glider without them...With that said I would lean toward the LAK-17B FES and HPH304eS or the new Ventus that will be flapped and have the FES as an option.

2. If delivery lead time is an issue then the LAK-17B FES and HPH 304eS are probably the way to go as the Ventus lead time is quite lengthy.

3. I wrote an article in the March 2013 issue of Soaring on the LAK-17B FES, so you may want to read it for more background info. It's a great ship that I have truly enjoyed for 4 seasons flying in New Mexico.

4. HPH also makes wonderful gliders and I really enjoyed the great quality and handling of my 304CZ. You may want to contact a 304S owner to get their handling impressions.

Again, whichever ship you choose I am sure you will be very pleased...and you will definitely love the FES!

Good luck - Renny




On Tuesday, December 8, 2015 at 3:36:06 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I'm considering the purchase of an 18m FES equipped sailplane, and would like to hear thoughts and opinions about the various options available. I'm seeking a cross country machine with long legs and a highly reliable sustainer. An 18m FES sailplane should fit that requirement nicely.

I'm a somewhat green pilot, but in the year or so before a new glider could be manufactured and delivered, I will have accumulated some more experience in my club's DG-505 and DG-1000. I have eliminated the Ventus 2cx as a possibility, due to the aircraft's reputation as being unsuitable for low-time pilots. In the 18m class, that leaves the following gliders that are available with a FES system:

- Discus 2c
- Lak-17B
- HpH 304S Shark

All three appear to have similar performance, as best I can tell from published data. I don't plan to be racing any time soon, so a difference of a few points in best glide ratio is not significant to me.

According to the flight reports that I've read, all three feature docile handling that should not be a problem for a low-time pilot. The Lak-17B and HpH Shark have flaps. I have thoroughly researched the apparently controversial issue of whether flapped ships are suitable for low-time pilots, and am convinced that they are more of an asset than a liability.

In the interests of staying on topic, let's not make this thread about flaps or the FES. These topics have already been thoroughly discussed on RAS. Please start a new thread or add to an old thread if you wish to discuss further.

I'll list some of the pros and cons of each ship that I can see, but would love to hear if anyone disagrees with them, or has anything to add.

Discus 2c
- Pros: Reputation for excellent handling. Optional GRS. Possibly higher resale value and ease of selling due to its popularity.
- Cons: No flaps.

Lak-17B
- Pros: Lower cost (better value) than the other two. Half the lead time of the other two (6 vs 12 mo).
- Cons: No safety cockpit.

HpH Shark
- Pros: Good looking (purely my opinion).
- Cons: Every flight review I've read says it handles well but... every reviewer had at least one negative thing to say about the handling. Hard to draw conclusions, but some doubt as been cast in my mind.

By now it may be clear which one I'm leaning toward. However, I wouldn't have posted this if my mind wasn't open to others' opinions, so I welcome and appreciate your thoughts. In the end, the decision will come down to what's most important to me: safety and handling. I guess what I'm really seeking is a double-check on my thinking regarding this rather significant purchase.

Cheers,
Ben


  #9  
Old December 9th 15, 06:12 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Mike the Strike
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Default Which 18m FES sailplane to buy?

I have many hours in the 15m Discus 2 and the 18m is not much different - rally superb handling and very forgiving.

I have a few hours in an early HpH 304 and while it flew and handled well, I did not like the parallelogram stick. I found it did not harmonize well with the aileron control. The Discus 2 is to me a much better sorted ship.

I have quite a bit of time in the Ventus 2bx, also not too different from the 2cx. It's basically a flapped Discus!

Can't comment on the Lak.

It's all a matter of personal taste.

Mike

  #10  
Old December 9th 15, 06:38 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Surge
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Default Which 18m FES sailplane to buy?

On Wednesday, 9 December 2015 01:10:25 UTC+2, Casey Cox wrote:
I can understand why one would want a specific glider if one was planning to compete, but with so many more advantages of having a 13.5m, I wonder why more people do not consider them.


The performance of 13.5m gliders is a lot lower than even previous generation glass/carbon gliders. Most of the 13.5m gliders have max L/D's in the high 30's or low 40's and their performance drops drastically when some speed is added (typically 2m/s sink rate at around the 170km/h mark). Their lower wing loading limitations doesn't lend them for the booming weather found in Africa/Australia/Western USA.
Most of them also have much lower Vne's (around the 220 to 230km/h mark) and this becomes an issue at higher altitudes where one becomes Vne limited.

The only benefit that I can see in owning a 13.5m glider is easier rigging and derigging due to lower weight components but I'm not age limited yet.
 




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