Leaving the community

wrote:

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 14:05:20 -0500, Matt Whiting
wrote:


wrote:


On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 09:16:34 -0500, Matt Whiting
wrote:



And there is a recent christian culture that gassed and burned 6
million human beings.

I'm not sure what a christian culture is, but a Christian culture didn't
do that. It was a Christian culture that came to the defense of the Jews.



You need to pick up a good history book and spend a little time with
it.

Hardly. Show me one shred of evidence that says Hitler was a bona fide
Christian. Show me one shred of evidence that says Christianity
supports genocide of Jews.


Matt





Take your pick.




“I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.”

( Adolf Hitler, from John Toland [Pulitzer Prize winner], Adolf
Hitler, New York: Anchor Publishing, 1992, p. 507. )

“The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in
his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially
of God's will, and actually fulfill God's will, and not let God's word
be desecrated. For God's will gave men their form, their essence and
their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the
Lord's creation, the divine will.”

( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner
Books, 1999, p. 562. )

“Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of
the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am
fighting for the work of the Lord.”

( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner
Books, 1999, p. 65. )

“My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a
fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded
only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and
summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest
not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian
and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at
last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the
Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight
against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with
deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact
that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As
a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have
the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice. And as a man I have
the duty to see to it that human society does not suffer the same
catastrophic collapse as did the civilization of the ancient world
some two thousand years ago — a civilization which was driven to its
ruin through this same Jewish people.

“Then indeed when Rome collapsed there were endless streams of new
German bands flowing into the Empire from the North; but, if Germany
collapses today, who is there to come after us? German blood upon this
earth is on the way to gradual exhaustion unless we pull ourselves
together and make ourselves free!

“And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting
rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I
have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see
them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they
have only for their wages wretchedness and misery. When I go out in
the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into
their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a
very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord
two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor
people are plundered and exploited.”

( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Munich, April 12, 1922; from
Norman H. Baynes, ed., The Speeches of Adolf Hitler: April 1922-August
1939, Vol. 1, New York: Oxford University Press, 1942, pp. 19-20. )

“For this, to be sure, from the child's primer down to the last
newspaper, every theater and every movie house, every advertising
pillar and every billboard, must be pressed into the service of this
one great mission, until the timorous prayer of our present parlor
patriots: ‘Lord, make us free!’ is transformed in the brain of the
smallest boy into the burning plea: ‘Almighty God, bless our arms when
the time comes; be just as thou hast always been; judge now whether we
be deserving of freedom; Lord, bless our battle!’”

( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner
Books, 1999, pp. 632-633. )

“I may not be a light of the church, a pulpiteer, but deep down I am a
pious man, and believe that whoever fights bravely in defense of the
natural laws framed by God and never capitulates will never be
deserted by the Lawgiver, but will, in the end, receive the blessings
of Providence.”

( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered on July 5, 1944; from Charles
Bracelen Flood, Hitler: The Path to Power, Boston, Mass: Houghton
Mifflin Company, 1989, p. 208. )

“I say: my Christian feeling tells me that my lord and savior is a
warrior. It calls my attention to the man who, lonely and surrounded
by only a few supporters, recognized what they [the Jews] were, and
called for a battle against them, and who, by God, was not the
greatest sufferer, but the greatest warrior. . .

“As a human being it is my duty to see to it that humanity will not
suffer the same catastrophic collapse as did that old civilization two
thousand years ago, a civilization which was driven to its ruin by the
Jews. . . I am convinced that I am really a devil and not a Christian
if I do not feel compassion and do not wage war, as Christ did two
thousand years ago, against those who are steeling and exploiting
these poverty-stricken people.

“Two thousand years ago a man was similarly denounced by this
particular race which today denounces and blasphememes all over the
place. . . That man was dragged before a court and they said: he is
arousing the people! So he, too, was an agitator!”

( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered on April 12, 1922; from Charles
Bracelen Flood, Hitler: The Path to Power, Boston, Mass: Houghton
Mifflin Company, 1989, pp. 261-262. )

Claiming something doesn't make it so. The Bible says that by their
works you will know them. Hitler's works clearly weren't Christian,
therefore he wasn't. I can claim to be the President of the United
States, but that doesn't make it so.


Matt

Dan Luke wrote:

"Matt Whiting" wrote:

I'm no supporter of the Catholic church, so I won't argue with you
there. The Catholic church doesn't follow the Bible in many ways and
much of what they believe in and do is simply not supported by
scripture and often outright condemned.

I know most Catholics would disagree, but I don't consider Catholicism
to be Christianity as they tend to elevate Mary to a level equal to or
even higher than Christ.


In discussions like this it usually isn't long before the retreating
Christian pulls out the old "no true Scotsman" argument.

You can believe whatever you want. But Baptists haven't agreed with
Catholic views for a lot longer than I've been around.


Matt

On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 02:40:15 GMT, wrote:

And there is a recent christian culture that gassed and burned 6
million human beings.

I'm not sure what a christian culture is, but a Christian culture didn't
do that. It was a Christian culture that came to the defense of the Jews.



You need to pick up a good history book and spend a little time with
it.

Hardly. Show me one shred of evidence that says Hitler was a bona fide
Christian. Show me one shred of evidence that says Christianity
supports genocide of Jews.


Matt

*** Snip of 11 sentences or paragraphs from Hitlers writings or
speeches confirming his belief in God***

Matt says:
Claiming something doesn't make it so. The Bible says that by their
works you will know them. Hitler's works clearly weren't Christian,
therefore he wasn't. I can claim to be the President of the United
States, but that doesn't make it so.

Matt this is pathetic. It's disingenuous to argue that recorded
authenticated evidence doesn't count just because you don't think it
should.

You asked the man to show you one shred of evidence. He did far more
than requested, he showed you a whole bundle, which by the way must
have taken some time to research and record. From his (Hitler's)
writings, it's obvious he professed to be a Christian. It doesn't
matter that you think he did not behave as a Christian, you have the
evidence you asked for.

History is replete with people who professed to be Christians and/or
believers in God, but behaved like apostles of evil. How they behaved
does not alter the fact that they thought of themselves as members of
a religion, believers in God.

Sure, you can say (paraphrasing): "well they did evil so obviously
they weren't true believers because true believers would not do evil".
But how do you know this? Is God omniscient or not? If He/She/It is,
then the centuries of slaughter in God's name, which continue to this
day, have been explicitly condoned by this holy being. But wait, the
sixth Commandment is: "Thou shalt not kill". Uh oh, how does that
work?

Corky (Oooohhh too much information!!!) Scott

PS, double Uh oh:
Claiming something doesn't make it so. The Bible says that by their
works you will know them. Hitler's works clearly weren't Christian,
therefore he wasn't. I can claim to be the President of the United
States, but that doesn't make it so.

Speaking of the president, does he profess to believe in God? Ok, ha
ha, retorical question we all know he REALLY believes in God, or,
going with your argument, says he does. But did he not sign the death
warrants for many people on death row in Texas? Did he not send
thousands of troops into harms way which resulted in hundreds of
thousands of deaths. If he did, then he was directly responsible for
their deaths. Is this ok? A little justifiable killing here and
there for protection's sake?

"Matt Whiting" wrote:

"No true Scotsman..."

"Matt Whiting" wrote:
So you indoctrinate them into the religion of "free thinking",
philosophy, etc. I was just curious.

Another tired argument commonly used by dogmatists. "Everything is
religion, so my religion makes just as much sense as anything else."

On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 07:20:43 -0500, Matt Whiting
wrote:

Claiming something doesn't make it so. The Bible says that by their
works you will know them. Hitler's works clearly weren't Christian,
therefore he wasn't. I can claim to be the President of the United
States, but that doesn't make it so.


Matt



"Show me a shred of evidence" he says, "that Hitler was a Christian".

So I shows him several shreds, I does.

"Evidence don't mean anything" he now says. "I believe what I want to
believe".

An essential trait for the religious, I think.

On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 17:10:03 +0100 (CET), Nomen Nescio
] wrote:

Actually, It's "Thou shalt not MURDER" (Lost a little something in translation).
There is no general prohibition of "killing" in the Bible, which also spells out the
conditions in which killing a human is allowed.

No problem then, fire away...

Repeat of old Quaker joke: Old farmer hears a ruckus out in the barn
late one night. Climbs out of bed in his nightshirt, grabs the
blunderbuss over the mantle, lights a lantern and waddles out to the
barn.

He throws open the barn door to observe a thief in the middle of
attempting to steal his horse.

Leveling the blunderbuss at the would be thief, he portends: "Friend,
I would not hurt thee for all the world, but thee's standing where I'm
about to shoot."

Corky Scott

On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 08:49:32 -0600, "Dan Luke"
wrote:


"Matt Whiting" wrote:

"No true Scotsman..."



You know, I don't know how we overlooked, in all this discussion, that
great American christian group known as the White Knights of the Ku
Klux Klan.

Now there's a fine collection of religious fellows if there ever was
one.

I'm no supporter of the Catholic church, so I won't argue with you there.
The Catholic church doesn't follow the Bible in many ways and much of what
they believe in and do is simply not supported by scripture and often
outright condemned.

I know most Catholics would disagree, but I don't consider Catholicism to
be Christianity as they tend to elevate Mary to a level equal to or even
higher than Christ.

Whoo-whee!

Man, if only I had the guts to have said something like this to the nuns
back at good ol' St. Catherine's High School, in Racine, WI. (Class of '76)

Dang, I'd STILL be walking with a limp...

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Not this one. In Texas, no less.

"Dena Schlosser, 35, was charged with capital murder Monday after calmly
telling a 911 operator that she had cut off the arms of 11-month old
Margaret. Police found Schlosser sitting in her living room, covered in
blood, a church hymn playing in the background."

Now, come on. I think it's safe to say that people of ALL religions and
beliefs would classify this lady as mentally ill.

Although some might call it "possessed"?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"