NATCA Going Down in Flames

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"bdl" wrote in message
ups.com...

They aren't.


You're misinformed.

Not according to the AP.

Bob Noel wrote:
In article .com,
"bdl" wrote:

Do you work better in a tie?

I work more professionally.

So naturally your experience must extrapolate to everyone else in
all other jobs...

Never said that. He was extrapolating his experience to me.

Jose wrote:
Even drowsiness to the extent of incapacitation?

I'm drowsy to incapacitation every night. That doesn't make me sick
every night.

Ok fine, whatever.

"bdl" wrote in message
oups.com...

Even drowsiness to the extent of incapacitation?


Yes. The new "contract" says sick leave cannot be granted for rest.



If they are so drowsy they are not at 100% for work they shouldnt' be
there.


FAA management disagrees with you.



http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archive.../717-full.html

quote
Among the FAA's new work rules imposed on air traffic controllers last
week was a ban on napping during breaks and, predictably perhaps, the
agency and the controllers union differ on the impact of such a rule.
"Even though they're on break, they can be called back to work at any
time," FAA spokeswoman Laura Brown told The Associated Press. "If they
had to be called back to work traffic and they had been sleeping, they
would be groggy."
/qoute


That's simply fascinating. "Groggy" means "dazed and weakened, as from lack
of sleep". So FAA management cannot permit controllers to sleep while
they're on a break because if they had to be called back to work traffic and
they had been sleeping, they would be suffering from a lack of sleep.



It was justified.


What was the justification?

"Allen" wrote in message
...

How long is the break period?


It varies. On a night shift, when a nap would be most beneficial, it could
be several hours.

I used to trade into many night shifts when I was taking college courses.
We'd work together until the traffic died down to practically nothing,
usually about an hour into the shift which began at 10PM. Then one of us
would take a break for about three hours. On my break I'd study, my partner
would usually nap. Before the traffic would pick up, with about an hour
left in the shift, we'd be working together again.

"bdl" wrote in message
oups.com...

Not according to the AP.


Absurd. If FAA management wasn't making an issue of it there'd be nothing
to report.

"Grumman-581" wrote:

Sounds like we need to fix the A/C.

That's what I suggested previously... If you want to make them quit wearing
shorts, just turn up the A/C...

Usually it's not that simple.

My company has designed and installed the HVAC controls in several tower
cabs. They are a difficult cooling design problem because of the small
volume and large solar radiation load. Sizing the cooling equipment for a
worst case summer day will cause it to be oversized for most other cooling
days, which can lead to inadequate dehumidification, particularly at night.
HVAC systems are almost never designed for worst case days.

--
Dan
C-172RG at BFM

In article . com,
"bdl" wrote:

Do you work better in a tie?

I work more professionally.

So naturally your experience must extrapolate to everyone else in
all other jobs...

Never said that. He was extrapolating his experience to me.

"So while dockers and a collared shirt may not be as regimented as a
uniform its still better in my opinion than a cavalier, anything goes
attitude."

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

In article ,
Larry Dighera wrote:

Well, I believe Boeing and LocMart have already developed (and
deployed) modern ATC systems (probably superior to the existing FAA
stuff), so modernization could be much more rapid than if the FAA
developed and implemented something similar.

What does Boeing or LocMart have that is better or more modern than
STARS (which is being deployed now)?

Bob, I don't have a specific answer to your question, as I don't claim
to be familiar with STARS nor Boeing/LocMart ATC systems.

So why do you believe that Boeing and Locmart have already developed
more modern ATC systems than the FAA has?



Is STARS space-based?

No. STARS uses multiple radar feeds (the typical traditional long-range and
terminal radars that we all know and love). It can be upgraded with other
sensor feeds as they become available.

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

This is what CAMI (Civil Aeronautical Medical Institute, or something)
calls "rapidly reversing rotating schedules" or something like that. It's
usually a late shift (3p-11p) followed by an earlier late shift, then a
quick
turnaround day shift and either two more early dayshifts, or dayshift then
midshift (8 hours apart). CAMI reported this was one of the worse
schedules on the human body, saying something similar to what you said,
perpetual state of jetlag. Just when your body recovers, if at all, it's
time
to start all over again. I've been doing it for 21+ years at 3 different
facilities, 2 swings, 3 days or 2 swings, 2 days, 1 mid (graveyard). One
year, citing these CAMI studies, I tried to do the opposite, 3 day shifts -
each one later than the prior, and 2 swing shifts. I even said I'd take the
less popular days-off, like Mo/Tu or Tu/We even though I had the seniority
to get whatever I wanted. Shot down, "not the way we do it or have ever
done it".
If I were to do those 20-25min power naps, I'd say they were extremely
effective and I wouldnt get up in a daze. I'd be able to get right into the
heaviest rush - IF I were to do that. But it's not for everyone, but I
could
come out of a snoring, drooling, REM laden snoozefest - and be ready
for anything. Those that say it's not possible are wrong, based on what
I've seen. Not working graveyards go a long way towards not needing
them at all.
This whole "contract" thing...most controllers I know just want to come to
work,
do their job and be left alone. Now we're getting bothered daily with
"contract"
interpretations, GENOT's about a wrong interpretation, told that 'flat'
shoes
no matter if they're dress shoes or not are not acceptable, then the
opposite, then
we can work credit for someone else, then we can't, that we're getting a pay
cut,
then pay freeze, then status quo, then supervisors are getting a 13% pay
raise,
followed by a possible $20k pay cut, then we can't flex in, then we can...on
and
on it goes. In other words, non-stop screwing around with us with rules
that
those enforcing them don't even understand, regardless of this fairly
expensive
"class" they all went to in St. Louis..on your dime. My take, it was just
one big
party celebrating the wide swing of the pendulum in their direction.
Because
they sure didnt come back very edumacated.
Put simply, picture the least respected traffic dodgers, in other words
someone
being paid, quite a bit, to NOT do the job they were hired to do. In some
cases
it's been years, several, since talking to an airplane. These are the ones
deciding
if the shirt you have on, or the bottom of your shoe, is acceptable or not.
Same
ones who monday morning quarterback you about how you work traffic,
nevermind
they'd be downright dangerous near a scope. Now they've been given the keys
to
the kingdom with this contract, and they're going to town. It'll get real
bad before
they realize the damage they've done, and we'll all pay for it, but they
won't. If
some of you think controllers are overpaid, you need to get a load of these
types.
Paid even more to do far less. They are the problem. I like to think we
(pilots and controllers) are on the same team. I'm just not sure who they
think
lower of, controllers (worker bee's) or the users.
Rots of ruck, Chris


"Morgans" wrote in message
...

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote

I believe most facilities still work on a seven week rotation. Two
evening
shifts, followed by two day shifts, followed by two days off, then
repeat.
That's six days so your two days off advance by one day each week. It's
juggled a bit when the two days off are on a weekend so that there's two
natural weekends off in a row. That's the schedule for a facility that
closes at night. At 24 hour facilities you'll get a day-mid. Come in at
about six AM and then back that same day about 10 PM.

I'm surprised that there are work schedules like that, still around. It
seems like that would put a person in perpetual jet lag. That would put
people in a state where fatigue would be unpreventable, I would think.

No wonder that some think naps are needed. I would need them, I think.
--
Jim in NC