Glider Safety

In article
,
Dave White wrote:

I always thought that glider pilots were a pretty sharp bunch, by and
large. However, some of the comments in this discussion are
breathtaking in the level of sheer nonsense and selfishness they
display. Clearly, there is a surprisingly common underlying attitude
that contributes to our accident problem.

Agreed. My being the one in two thousand is looking a lot less likely
considering the distribution I'm seeing here. I almost feel like saying
thank you, thank you, thank you!

Further, the brilliant idea of requiring advanced badges for CFIGs is
sheer stupidity. *The soaring community is already woefully short of
instructors--the very men and women who do the most to grow the
sport. *The very idea that you can't teach soaring without a diamond
badge beggars belief. *How will reducing the instructor corps to a
mere handful improve safety, much less improve the sport? *Astonishing
arrogance.

So, how much good are crappy instructors for the sport? I know of
many 'instructors' whose only interest is "free flying". A lot of
accidents can be traced back to them.

We are not short of instructors - we actually have a surplus.
However, many pilots holding instructor certificates are not willing
to instruct which says something about working conditions. A lot of
them are no longer willing to spend time in ragged old trainers. Buy
a new trainer and instructors will come out of the woodwork.

In a lifetime of observation and instructing, it's clear to me the
best instructors always hold advanced badges and the worst never do.
While it's not quite black and white, there's a very strong
relationship between soaring accomplishment and ability as an
instructor.

I don't ask for FAR Part 61 instructor experience requirements be
changed to include FAI badges but I strongly suggest students seek out
instructors with them. I also tell any instructor seeking some
respect to get their Diamond.

On Feb 24, 6:16*am, Dave White wrote:
I always thought that glider pilots were a pretty sharp bunch, by and
large. *However, some of the comments in this discussion are
breathtaking in the level of sheer nonsense and selfishness they
display. *Clearly, there is a surprisingly common underlying attitude
that contributes to our accident problem. *Those who think it's okay
to put themselves, their glider, their families, and innocent others
at risk simply because they have a "right" to fly without a medical
have a bigger issue than their medical condition. *While I am not in
favor of requiring a third class medical for glider flying, clearly we
need a new approach to medical qualification--if for no other reason
than the irresponsibility of these persons.

Further, the brilliant idea of requiring advanced badges for CFIGs is
sheer stupidity. *The soaring community is already woefully short of
instructors--the very men and women who do the most to grow the
sport. *The very idea that you can't teach soaring without a diamond
badge beggars belief. *How will reducing the instructor corps to a
mere handful improve safety, much less improve the sport? *Astonishing
arrogance.

The fact is that soaring has a problem with safety. *Another fact is
that we as a community have failed to identify the segment of our
community most likely to be involved in an accident. * *At the recent
FIRC during the SSA convention, I asked why no attempt has been made
to do an in-depth analysis of the accident record to try and find
demographic data that might be relevant. *There was no interest in the
idea, and I have since been told that the data would be impossible to
obtain. *I don't buy that--I think it's just head in the sand
thinking. *We as a community deserve an answer about the
characteristics, skills, attitudes, and experience of those most
likely to be involved in an accident. *That would enable the safety
and educational agencies to focus more preventive effort on the real
causes of accidents, rather than merely telling us what happened after
the fact.

I recall reading about a few accidents in the Soaring Safety Column/
Corner. In the last few years:

If I recall correctly, a couple of really smart guys broke a wing off
a motorglider and died.

Another guy recently tore his glider apart while flying in wave. The
description of the pilots curriculum vitae seems to indicate such an
accident would never happen to him.

Another unfortunate pilot was caught in a micro-burst while making an
off field landing.

I'm sure each of these pilots was well aware of the conditions that
killed them, they just didn't know this particular flight was going to
be their last.

We all learn from these accidents. And we are all aware of the
circumstances that caused them. But I guarantee you there will be more
pilots snapping wings off of gliders, crashing gliders due to micro-
bursts, and having fatal O2 problems.

So yeah, we are a bunch of sharp guys..................good luck
sussing out who will be the next unfortunate accident victim. I'm
guessing it will be some smart guy with tons of hours and experience.

FWIW,
Brad

On Feb 24, 11:00*am, bildan wrote:
Further, the brilliant idea of requiring advanced badges for CFIGs is
sheer stupidity. *The soaring community is already woefully short of
instructors--the very men and women who do the most to grow the
sport. *The very idea that you can't teach soaring without a diamond
badge beggars belief. *How will reducing the instructor corps to a
mere handful improve safety, much less improve the sport? *Astonishing
arrogance.

So, how much good are crappy instructors for the sport? *I know of
many 'instructors' whose only interest is "free flying". *A lot of
accidents can be traced back to them.

We are not short of instructors - we actually have a surplus.
However, many pilots holding instructor certificates are not willing
to instruct which says something about working conditions. *A lot of
them are no longer willing to spend time in ragged old trainers. *Buy
a new trainer and instructors will come out of the woodwork.

In a lifetime of observation and instructing, it's clear to me the
best instructors always hold advanced badges and the worst never do.
While it's not quite black and white, there's a very strong
relationship between soaring accomplishment and ability as an
instructor.

I don't ask for FAR Part 61 instructor experience requirements be
changed to include FAI badges but I strongly suggest students seek out
instructors with them. *I also tell any instructor seeking some
respect to get their Diamond.

I think you'd lose a lot of experienced and effective instructors.
Seeking advanced badges and advanced knowledge is certainly a good
trait in an instructor but not the be all and end all. Not all of us
live and work and play at a "Diamond Mine" location. Some instructors
seek advancement in other ways than badge flights. I've only got a
lousy Silver Badge but I certainly think I'm a decent CFIG, at least
my students and their DPE's seem to think so. As far as I know none
of the CFIG's I have taken training from have above a Silver Badge.
But I still feel that I received top notch instruction. I also feel
that I get plenty of respect from my fellow glider pilots even though
I don't have the coveted Diamonds.

If any of the racing pilots in the country came to me for a spring
checkout or a flight review I wouldn't be able to teach them a damn
thing about going fast or winning races, but that is not what a flight
review or spring checkout is about. We'd have a fun time reviewing
tow signals, tow failures, abnormal patterns, spot landings, sim off
field landings, and other things that are the real killers.

And I'm still young enough to think of an afternoon crammed in the
back of a 2-XX rotating through 3 or 4 students as a good time.
Hopefully I don't get too old for that for a long time.

On Feb 24, 9:00*am, bildan wrote:

So, how much good are crappy instructors for the sport? *I know of
many 'instructors' whose only interest is "free flying". *A lot of
accidents can be traced back to them.

Well said!

Furthermore, there is an attitude in some clubs around the country
(including my local club) that you cannot give advice or instruction
or peer-reviews unless you are a CFIG. Without that ticket, you are
unqualified to pass along knowledge and even non-CFIGs have taken
steps to stop the transfer of knowledge between private pilots who are
trying to mentor others. I have been fortunate to have a few very
good CFIGs (all of them at commercial outfits, none of them were club
instructors) - but I have also learned a hell of a lot from private
pilots who took me aside and mentored me.

Good (and bad) information can come from any source, no matter their
certificate level or their age or number or hours of experience. As
Pilots-in-command (with our lives and the lives of others in our
hands), we have a duty to find and filter good sources of
information. And while this may seem like common sense to some - when
was the last time you heard a student being told this?

Lastly: The Soaring community talks about *quantity* of training (in
terms of spring checkouts and recurrent training)... But *QUALITY* of
training gets swept under the rug a lot. Good primary training is the
time to instill proper attitudes towards safety and advancement and
all of these other issues - yet I don't think these get taught much,
especially in club environments where training is done by old/
overworked/underprepared instructors.

--Noel
(who's hoping to become a CFIG that does not fall into one of the
categories I just mentioned)

Tony wrote:


I think you'd lose a lot of experienced and effective instructors.
Seeking advanced badges and advanced knowledge is certainly a good
trait in an instructor but not the be all and end all. Not all of us
live and work and play at a "Diamond Mine" location. Some instructors
seek advancement in other ways than badge flights. I've only got a
lousy Silver Badge but I certainly think I'm a decent CFIG, at least
my students and their DPE's seem to think so. As far as I know none
of the CFIG's I have taken training from have above a Silver Badge.
But I still feel that I received top notch instruction. I also feel
that I get plenty of respect from my fellow glider pilots even though
I don't have the coveted Diamonds.

If any of the racing pilots in the country came to me for a spring
checkout or a flight review I wouldn't be able to teach them a damn
thing about going fast or winning races, but that is not what a flight
review or spring checkout is about. We'd have a fun time reviewing
tow signals, tow failures, abnormal patterns, spot landings, sim off
field landings, and other things that are the real killers.

And I'm still young enough to think of an afternoon crammed in the
back of a 2-XX rotating through 3 or 4 students as a good time.
Hopefully I don't get too old for that for a long time.



Another issue is the type of glider being used. Does a glass pilot
learn anything useful by practicing abnormal patterns, spot landings,
simulated off field landings, etc. in a 2-XX? Don't you need an least
an ASK-21 or Grob 103 to make such instruction useful, and preferably a
Duo Discus or DG-1000? Or even better, have him use his own glider to
practice these things?

On Feb 24, 12:40*pm, "noel.wade" wrote:
training is done by old/ overworked/underprepared instructors.
(who's hoping to become a CFIG that does not fall into one of the
categories I just mentioned)

Sorry to hear that. Getting old sucks but it beats the alternative.

More to the point though, there are at least 3 qualities required of
an instructor - experience, ability to teach, and perhaps just as
important, a desire to instruct. Quite a few instructors with both
experience and ability choose to do other things with their time.
Many of them (us) did their fair share in the back seat (and/or right
seat) but now find solo flying more enjoyable.


Andy

On Feb 24, 12:39*pm, Tony wrote:
On Feb 24, 11:00*am, bildan wrote:



Further, the brilliant idea of requiring advanced badges for CFIGs is
sheer stupidity. *The soaring community is already woefully short of
instructors--the very men and women who do the most to grow the
sport. *The very idea that you can't teach soaring without a diamond
badge beggars belief. *How will reducing the instructor corps to a
mere handful improve safety, much less improve the sport? *Astonishing
arrogance.

So, how much good are crappy instructors for the sport? *I know of
many 'instructors' whose only interest is "free flying". *A lot of
accidents can be traced back to them.

We are not short of instructors - we actually have a surplus.
However, many pilots holding instructor certificates are not willing
to instruct which says something about working conditions. *A lot of
them are no longer willing to spend time in ragged old trainers. *Buy
a new trainer and instructors will come out of the woodwork.

In a lifetime of observation and instructing, it's clear to me the
best instructors always hold advanced badges and the worst never do.
While it's not quite black and white, there's a very strong
relationship between soaring accomplishment and ability as an
instructor.

I don't ask for FAR Part 61 instructor experience requirements be
changed to include FAI badges but I strongly suggest students seek out
instructors with them. *I also tell any instructor seeking some
respect to get their Diamond.

I think you'd lose a lot of experienced and effective instructors.
Seeking advanced badges and advanced knowledge is certainly a good
trait in an instructor but not the be all and end all. *Not all of us
live and work and play at a "Diamond Mine" location. *Some instructors
seek advancement in other ways than badge flights. *I've only got a
lousy Silver Badge but I certainly think I'm a decent CFIG, at least
my students and their DPE's seem to think so. *As far as I know none
of the CFIG's I have taken training from have above a Silver Badge.
But I still feel that I received top notch instruction. *I also feel
that I get plenty of respect from my fellow glider pilots even though
I don't have the coveted Diamonds.

If any of the racing pilots in the country came to me for a spring
checkout or a flight review I wouldn't be able to teach them a damn
thing about going fast or winning races, but that is not what a flight
review or spring checkout is about. *We'd have a fun time reviewing
tow signals, tow failures, abnormal patterns, spot landings, sim off
field landings, and other things that are the real killers.

And I'm still young enough to think of an afternoon crammed in the
back of a 2-XX rotating through 3 or 4 students as a good time.
Hopefully I don't get too old for that for a long time.

If badges were required for instructors, I think most of the
'effective' instructors would just go get them - even if it took a
trip. I would suspect the motivation and commitment of who couldn't
be bothered.

I recall an incident where a 'professional' instructor was offered an
LS-4, crew and a tow - all free of charge - to get Gold Distance on a
booming 10 knot, 18,000' cloud,base day. All he had to do was fly out
95 miles and come back - it would probably have taken less than 4
thermals yet he began sweating profusely and declined. I had
previously heard him denigrating cross country pilots as "crazy
people" when speaking to his students. He was terrified of getting
out of gliding range of the home airport. Unfortunately, this isn't
uncommon.

We have known for decades that pilots who take up cross country flying
tend to stay with the sport longer than those who don't. Instructors
set an example. If they instill a fear of XC flying, it hurts the
sport.

On Feb 24, 2:07*pm, bildan wrote:
On Feb 24, 12:39*pm, Tony wrote:





On Feb 24, 11:00*am, bildan wrote:

Further, the brilliant idea of requiring advanced badges for CFIGs is
sheer stupidity. *The soaring community is already woefully short of
instructors--the very men and women who do the most to grow the
sport. *The very idea that you can't teach soaring without a diamond
badge beggars belief. *How will reducing the instructor corps to a
mere handful improve safety, much less improve the sport? *Astonishing
arrogance.

So, how much good are crappy instructors for the sport? *I know of
many 'instructors' whose only interest is "free flying". *A lot of
accidents can be traced back to them.

We are not short of instructors - we actually have a surplus.
However, many pilots holding instructor certificates are not willing
to instruct which says something about working conditions. *A lot of
them are no longer willing to spend time in ragged old trainers. *Buy
a new trainer and instructors will come out of the woodwork.

In a lifetime of observation and instructing, it's clear to me the
best instructors always hold advanced badges and the worst never do.
While it's not quite black and white, there's a very strong
relationship between soaring accomplishment and ability as an
instructor.

I don't ask for FAR Part 61 instructor experience requirements be
changed to include FAI badges but I strongly suggest students seek out
instructors with them. *I also tell any instructor seeking some
respect to get their Diamond.

I think you'd lose a lot of experienced and effective instructors.
Seeking advanced badges and advanced knowledge is certainly a good
trait in an instructor but not the be all and end all. *Not all of us
live and work and play at a "Diamond Mine" location. *Some instructors
seek advancement in other ways than badge flights. *I've only got a
lousy Silver Badge but I certainly think I'm a decent CFIG, at least
my students and their DPE's seem to think so. *As far as I know none
of the CFIG's I have taken training from have above a Silver Badge.
But I still feel that I received top notch instruction. *I also feel
that I get plenty of respect from my fellow glider pilots even though
I don't have the coveted Diamonds.

If any of the racing pilots in the country came to me for a spring
checkout or a flight review I wouldn't be able to teach them a damn
thing about going fast or winning races, but that is not what a flight
review or spring checkout is about. *We'd have a fun time reviewing
tow signals, tow failures, abnormal patterns, spot landings, sim off
field landings, and other things that are the real killers.

And I'm still young enough to think of an afternoon crammed in the
back of a 2-XX rotating through 3 or 4 students as a good time.
Hopefully I don't get too old for that for a long time.

If badges were required for instructors, I think most of the
'effective' instructors would just go get them - even if it took a
trip. *I would suspect the motivation and commitment of who couldn't
be bothered.

I recall an incident where a 'professional' instructor was offered an
LS-4, crew and a tow - all free of charge - to get Gold Distance on a
booming 10 knot, 18,000' cloud,base day. *All he had to do was fly out
95 miles and come back - it would probably have taken less than 4
thermals yet he began sweating profusely and declined. *I had
previously heard him denigrating cross country pilots as "crazy
people" when speaking to his students. *He was terrified of getting
out of gliding range of the home airport. *Unfortunately, this isn't
uncommon.

We have known for decades that pilots who take up cross country flying
tend to stay with the sport longer than those who don't. *Instructors
set an example. *If they instill a fear of XC flying, it hurts the
sport.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I agree that encouraging cross country flying is a very good thing.

When I got my CFIG I had a hard enough time affording to do the add on
training, let alone take a couple weeks off in the summer to go to a
diamond mine, join a club or get checked out in a commercial
operation, learn a new to me glider, and then get to the point where I
was ready to fly it cross country. And then complete gold or diamond
badge flights with it. Hell even right now, I am in a dual income no
kids no college debt no car payment and pretty low rent situation and
I don't think I'd be too interested in taking a week in Boulder or
Minden. I'd probably spend enough in a week of glider rental and tow
costs not to mention gas to get there and hotels and food to pay for a
season's worth of tows at home. Or I could just use that money to buy
another Cherokee II!

So no, if gold or higher were required for CFIG, the "effective"
instructors would not just go get them. Only the ones who could get
the time off work and who could afford the associated costs with
getting the badge would do it.

On Feb 24, 11:58*am, Greg Arnold wrote:
Tony wrote:

I think you'd lose a lot of experienced and effective instructors.
Seeking advanced badges and advanced knowledge is certainly a good
trait in an instructor but not the be all and end all. *Not all of us
live and work and play at a "Diamond Mine" location. *Some instructors
seek advancement in other ways than badge flights. *I've only got a
lousy Silver Badge but I certainly think I'm a decent CFIG, at least
my students and their DPE's seem to think so. *As far as I know none
of the CFIG's I have taken training from have above a Silver Badge.
But I still feel that I received top notch instruction. *I also feel
that I get plenty of respect from my fellow glider pilots even though
I don't have the coveted Diamonds.

If any of the racing pilots in the country came to me for a spring
checkout or a flight review I wouldn't be able to teach them a damn
thing about going fast or winning races, but that is not what a flight
review or spring checkout is about. *We'd have a fun time reviewing
tow signals, tow failures, abnormal patterns, spot landings, sim off
field landings, and other things that are the real killers.

And I'm still young enough to think of an afternoon crammed in the
back of a 2-XX rotating through 3 or 4 students as a good time.
Hopefully I don't get too old for that for a long time.

Another issue is the type of glider being used. *Does a glass pilot
learn anything useful by practicing abnormal patterns, spot landings,
simulated off field landings, etc. in a 2-XX? *Don't you need an least
an ASK-21 or Grob 103 to make such instruction useful, and preferably a
Duo Discus or DG-1000? *Or even better, have him use his own glider to
practice these things?

Awhile ago a friend of mine bought himself a 40:1 motorglider. His
first glass ship, after years flying Blaniks, Twin Larks and other
club tin. He was a competent pilot and had a fair amount of time, I'm
guessing under 300 hours.

So, after getting checked out in his new motorglider, he flew it
"several" times at the local airport where our club operates. No
worries, he does fine, let's a few of us fly the ship......the first
thing I notice is this is NOT a Blanik, or a Lark, or anything else he
might have flown, this thing has a great sink rate, and a great glide,
and while easy to fly, did require all my attention when entering the
pattern and setting up for a landing.

One afternoon after flying together, and while having dinner at the
airport cafe, he say's to me "let's take our sailplanes to XX field
tomorrow and fly". I declined the invite, since it was a long drive
and didn't offer anything my local area didn't offer. But this field
is "trickier" than our home field, and I should have asked him if he
was comfortable enough in his new glider to go there, not "safer". It
never occurred to me to really dig in and question him.

The locals required him to take a couple check flights in the L-13, he
flies the TO/Tow, pattern then lands flawlessly. So now he's ready to
fly his glider. From what I understand he had a great flight, close to
4 hours and explores all the local ridges, etc. then..........when it
comes time to land, he sets up and flies a perfect Blanik pattern,
into this tight field, with no real emergency bail out
options..............panics, makes a few hesitant S turns, then stall
and spins into the middle of the field, killing himself.

What went wrong?

Brad