DG-300 or LS-3?

On 4/23/2010 6:10 PM, noel.wade wrote:
On Apr 23, 5:47 pm, Greg wrote:

That is a difference of only 30' of altitude each mile.


Greg -

Yes, it does seem like a paltry difference in altitude-per-mile.

But when you look at it in terms of competition flying, it equates to
a good 5 - 7 knots faster during inter-thermal cruising, for the same
sink-rate.

If you figure that 70% of a task is spent in cruise, that's a nice
advantage! Flying 85 knots versus 80 knots yields a 6% speed
difference in cruise. If you assume a similar climb rate (I know,
they may not be similar) and you assume that you spend 70% of your
flight in cruise, then the total performance advantage is 4%. But the
handicap difference between the DG-300 (0.95) and the LS-3 (0.937) is
only 1.4%

I know that the pilot matters more than the ship. I come from the
world of auto-racing and have experience in competition where bad
people think that fancy equipment will solve all of their
deficiencies. That's not the issue here... The issue for me is
whether its worth it to get the good ship *now* and have it for
several years, versus "practicing" with the DG-300 for a few years and
then moving over once I am "close" to winning...


What contest class do you want to fly it in? Sports class: I suspect the
handicaps are closer to correct than you would think from your
calculations. 15 M: the newer gliders like the ASW 27 are much better
than the LS3. Standard class: you can't fly the LS3 in Standard.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (netto to net to email me)

- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl

- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

Aaand it turns out to be a moot point. The LS-3 I had my eye on is
being sold for nearly $42k firm, no negotiation. Even though it's
been refinished and is a great ship, there's no way I'm paying that
kind of money for a 1970's airframe/design!

--Noel
(continuing as a DG-300 pilot for now)

On Apr 24, 11:24*pm, "noel.wade" wrote:
Aaand it turns out to be a moot point. The LS-3 I had my eye on is
being sold for nearly $42k firm, no negotiation. *Even though it's
been refinished and is a great ship, there's no way I'm paying that
kind of money for a 1970's airframe/design!

--Noel
(continuing as a DG-300 pilot for now)

Become a Master of the DG-300 Noel.

You have a great ship. It was in Moriarty for a while and I remember
it as an excellent sailplane.

On Apr 23, 8:54*pm, "noel.wade" wrote:
Hello all - I've got a question for the competition pilots out the

Imagine you're a budding competition pilot with about 300 hours in
your logbook. *You've done a couple of Sports-class competitions and
find them highly enjoyable. *You begin to make plans to buy a partial
share in a high-end machine in 2010/2011; but then have to change
gears financially and keep costs in check.

Now imagine you've standing in front of two aircraft:
1) A near-mint-condition DG-300 (with auto-hookups, great
instrumentation, and DG's ergonomics and visibility). *The ship has
spent its life in the desert southwest of the USA.

2) A recently-refinished LS-3 (_not_ an "a" model) with good equipment
- but an airframe that's a full 10 years older than the DG. *The ship
has spent its life on the East coast of the USA. *Assume that it is
only $3000 cheaper than the DG-300.

According to some old Idaflieg data, the LS-3 is significantly better
above 60 knots while the DG-300 has a noticeable climb-rate advantage
at slower speeds. *Not sure how accurate the Idaflieg data is, though.

What would _you_ consider to be the better ship to own? *If you owned
one of them, would you sell it to get the other?

Thanks for the assistance,

--Noel

I would go for the 300, very tough gel coat and superb to fly. Good in
weak thermals as well
Jackie

On Apr 24, 11:11*pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 4/23/2010 6:10 PM, noel.wade wrote:





On Apr 23, 5:47 pm, Greg *wrote:

That is a difference of only 30' of altitude each mile.

Greg -

Yes, it does seem like a paltry difference in altitude-per-mile.

But when you look at it in terms of competition flying, it equates to
a good 5 - 7 knots faster during inter-thermal cruising, for the same
sink-rate.

If you figure that 70% of a task is spent in cruise, that's a nice
advantage! *Flying 85 knots versus 80 knots yields a 6% speed
difference in cruise. *If you assume a similar climb rate (I know,
they may not be similar) and you assume that you spend 70% of your
flight in cruise, then the total performance advantage is 4%. *But the
handicap difference between the DG-300 (0.95) and the LS-3 (0.937) is
only 1.4%

I know that the pilot matters more than the ship. *I come from the
world of auto-racing and have experience in competition where bad
people think that fancy equipment will solve all of their
deficiencies. *That's not the issue here... *The issue for me is
whether its worth it to get the good ship *now* and have it for
several years, versus "practicing" with the DG-300 for a few years and
then moving over once I am "close" to winning...

What contest class do you want to fly it in? Sports class: I suspect the
handicaps are closer to correct than you would think from your
calculations. 15 M: the newer gliders like the ASW 27 are much better
than the LS3. Standard class: you can't fly the LS3 in Standard.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (netto to net to email me)

- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarmhttp://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl

- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Expanding on Eric's point for a minute. If you're looking to fly in
Sports Class primarily, then the observations on wingloading and
ballast you made earlier are irrelevant - Sports Class (at least here
in the US) is flown dry. So, the handicaps as established will be
close enough to "correct" that it's a toss-up as to which is more
competive. If that's the case, then I think there might be a slight
nod toward an LS3 in very good condition. Flaps are nice, especially
if you routinely fly in an area where you need to go fast (ridge or
strong conditions) or land in small spaces. I fly at a field that
has at least a half-dozen LS3s based there, and it's fun to watch the
good guys come in over the trees and get stopped in very short order
(it's no ASW20 mind you, but it's still pretty good at getting
down).

Now, if you're thinking that you'll also attend the local Regional in
the respective FAI class from time to time, then I firmly believe the
nod goes to the DG. Especially if you fly in the East and/or in a no-
water regionals, the DG300 is "pretty close" to current ships. Not
quite there of course, but not so far from the D2, LS8, or ASW28 that
you'll always be left in the dust. There's a well-flown DG 300
campaigning in Standard Class here on the East Coast, and he routinely
finishes in the top half or better of races.

The LS3 IMO is a wonderful ship, but it seems to be relatively less
competitive within 15M. The ASW20, LS6, and of course current
generation ships all have a significant advantage over the LS3 at the
higher end. I say "seems", because there are folks who have shown
that a well-prepared LS3 is pretty much as good as an ASW20 (google
this group for some threads on that topic, especially relating to wing
profiling). I've only got two flights in an LS3, but it handles like
a dream and is just so pleasant to fly. Then again, maybe I'm biased,
having owned an LS4 and now an LS8.

Erik Mann
LS8-18 (P3)

On Apr 25, 1:55*pm, S.B. wrote:
Papa3 wrote:
I've only got two flights in an LS3, but it handles like
a dream and is just so pleasant to fly. *Then again,
maybe I'm biased, having owned an LS4 and now
an LS8.

Is the LS8 much better that the LS4? *How does it
compare with the Discus 2?

Yeah, the LS8 is quite a bit better than the LS4 in two areas:

- Go fast. Anything above 70 it just walks away from the -4.
- Heavy. Handles water way better.

Having said the above... I know it may be heresy, but I actually think
the LS4 is a tiny bit better for choppy/broken thermals. I could slam
it around with rudder, haul back on the stick, and it doesn't protest
(with the CG properly set up). Nobody EVER outclimbed me when I was
flying the LS4.

P3

On Apr 25, 2:05*pm, Papa3 wrote:
On Apr 25, 1:55*pm, S.B. wrote:

Papa3 wrote:
I've only got two flights in an LS3, but it handles like
a dream and is just so pleasant to fly. *Then again,
maybe I'm biased, having owned an LS4 and now
an LS8.

Is the LS8 much better that the LS4? *How does it
compare with the Discus 2?

Yeah, the LS8 is quite a bit better than the LS4 in two areas:

- *Go fast. *Anything above 70 it just walks away from the -4.
- *Heavy. *Handles water way better.

Having said the above... I know it may be heresy, but I actually think
the LS4 is a tiny bit better for choppy/broken thermals. I could slam
it around with rudder, haul back on the stick, and it doesn't protest
(with the CG properly set up). * Nobody EVER outclimbed me when I was
flying the LS4.

P3

Noel just had an excellent flight today in his DG-300, he flew for
several hours with Ron in his LS-3. They both got back in the Cascades
up by Mt Baker, conditions got weak when the high cirrus moved in, but
they both made it home. I know I am looking forward to Noels
report........he sure seemed happy when he did his fly by!

Brad

Noel:

I have bought 3 gliders in the last 3 years. And I can tell you from
experience that one thing that needs to be at the absolute top of the
list when considering buying a glider is - Comfort.

I bought an ASW-15B which is a wonderful glider. It flies great,
thermals well and overall a terrific glider. But I had to sell it
primarily because I was two inches too tall for it. I then bought a
Standard Cirrus which has a couple inches more legroom. Now I can fly
all day long without getting cramped up. It really really makes a
difference being able to stretch out and relax during a 4-5 hour
flight.

Cockpit comfort is essential. If you ain't comfortable in it, then it
isn't worth buying it.

Hope this helps,

Scott

On Apr 26, 7:09*am, S.B. wrote:
Papa3 wrote:
S.B. wrote:
Is the LS8 much better that the LS4? *How does it
compare with the Discus 2?
Yeah, the LS8 is quite a bit better than the LS4 in two areas:
- *Go fast. *Anything above 70 it just walks away from the -4.
- *Heavy. *Handles water way better.
Having said the above... I know it may be heresy, but I actually think
the LS4 is a tiny bit better for choppy/broken thermals. I could slam
it around with rudder, haul back on the stick, and it doesn't protest
(with the CG properly set up). * Nobody EVER outclimbed me when I was
flying the LS4.

If you had to make a rushed approach into a small field
(yes, I know) which one would you rather do it in?

Not that I've ever done that... wait, actually I did that just last
week! :-) I think a slight nod to the -4. It just felt a little
more forgiving if you had to get it down and stopped using full
divebrakes and minumum safe airspeed. It just seems like the
airfoils is a tiny bit more tolerant of being mis-handled. That's a
very subjective answer, so it could be completely off base (could be
the entire system, could have just been me, who knows). FWIW, both
share the same (miserable) landing gear and brake (except I believe
the most recent DG-produced LS8). So, neither is as forgiving as the
Schleicher designs (for example) in a rough field or hard braking
situation.

My 0.02. YMMV.

P3

On Apr 26, 2:12*pm, S.B. wrote:
Papa3 wrote:
S.B. wrote:
Papa3 wrote:
I actually think the LS4 is a tiny bit better for choppy/broken
thermals.
If you had to make a rushed approach into a small field
(yes, I know) which one would you rather do it in?
Not that I've ever done that... wait, actually I did that just last
week! :-) *I think a slight nod to the -4. * It just felt a little
more forgiving if you had to get it down and stopped using full
divebrakes and minumum safe airspeed. * It just seems like the
airfoils is a tiny bit more tolerant of being mis-handled. * That's a
very subjective answer, so it could be completely off base (could be
the entire system, could have just been me, who knows). *FWIW, both
share the same (miserable) landing gear and brake (except I believe
the most recent DG-produced LS8). * So, neither is as forgiving as the
Schleicher designs (for example) in a rough field or hard braking
situation.

OK, thanks for that. *I'm thinking of a buying a new Standard Class
glider, so interested in what owners think of theirs. *The Standard
Cirrus was the first glider I flew that really impressed me with its
performance (it was back in the '70s), so, without knowing anything
much about the competition, I'm attracted to the Discus 2 and
Schempp-Hirth's generous cockpit. *I've flown the LS4 a bit and
liked it, and the LS6 which I didn't much like. *The LS8 with the
bigger wheel looks good.

Hi,

I'm curious, what didn't you like about the LS-6. I've heard the
handling is superb, but the cockpit a bit cramped.

Thanks,
Brad