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Truck vs Car as a tow vehicle



 
 
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  #41  
Old October 31st 20, 03:00 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
George Haeh
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Default Truck vs Car as a tow vehicle

On one two seater outlanding close to the club, my Subaru Forester was tasked to take the trailer into the field and pull it out with the glider. In another case, landing in a fallow sandy loam field glider had the glider sitting on the gear doors. I was thinking I'd have to ask the farmer for a tractor, but the Forester had no problem at all. There's been a lot of other soft fields. AWD and 215/60R16 tires do great, with the exception of maneuvering a trailer in pea gravel when the ECU throws up its hands.
  #42  
Old October 31st 20, 03:29 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default Truck vs Car as a tow vehicle

On Friday, October 30, 2020 at 7:45:43 PM UTC-4, Chip Bearden wrote:
I agree that few pilots want to invest in a special-purpose "glider towing only" vehicle. I've towed with everything from a Jeep CJ-7 (not a lot of fun although you never had to worry about nodding off to sleep accidentally) to a mini motorhome. I fly 3-4 contests a year and keep my trailer at home, towing it up to the gliderport about an hour away.

So years ago, I bought a used full-size Chevy van on eBay and fitted it out (also using eBay) with an interior, reclining seats, lights, sound, etc. There's a full-width third-row seat that I can sleep on (obviously not while driving). I paid about $11,000 for it 18 years ago and put another few thousand into equipping it. It's still got less than 100K miles because the only thing I use it for is soaring with occasional family vacation trips.

As Charlie Spratt told me once about all the guys with full-size vans: "We buy them as trucks and drive them like cars. So they last a long time."

I stays packed with all the tools, spares, equipment, etc., I use for soaring. I've slept in it for every contest since I went crewless about 15 years ago--with exceptions for Uvalde and TSA. If it's warm/humid, (e.g., Cordele, or on the road to a contest at a rest stop), a small fan cools things down just enough. It's long ago paid for its cost to acquire and I like the fact that I never really have to unpack/pack it.

It's comfortable to drive and a dream to tow with. Reliability has been generally good (the few problems have all been on long-distance soaring trips, of course). Mileage is OK (mid teens) but I don't drive it that much. It's got a V6, which has been enough to haul a family of four out West with the trailer multiple times. More recent V8s would be a better choice for both power and economy.

The one thing I miss is AWD/4WD. Once in a great while, it would have been nice to be able to drive out into a field instead of carrying the glider out in pieces. But that pushes up the cost and complication. Despite my participation on this newsgroup, I try to stay friendly with other pilots so that if I need 4WD someday, I can borrow it.

When I was growing up and for years after, we towed with the daily driver.. Breaking that rule can be very expensive but it doesn't necessarily mean buying a brand-new high-end vehicle that sits most of the time.

Just another view.

Chip Bearden
JB


Problem is, Chip, that over the 18 years you've paid for that van over again in insurance cost. That's the hurdle in the way of keeping an extra vehicle dedicated to soaring. I think insurance should cost by the total miles you drive over all your vehicles, alas they don't do it that way. Annual "registration" (pure bureaucracy, our most regressive tax) also costs quite a bit, and in some states they also charge you a percentage of the vehicle value every year in taxes.
  #43  
Old October 31st 20, 02:16 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Chip Bearden[_2_]
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Default Truck vs Car as a tow vehicle

Problem is, Chip, that over the 18 years you've paid for that van over again in insurance cost. That's the hurdle in the way of keeping an extra vehicle dedicated to soaring. I think insurance should cost by the total miles you drive over all your vehicles, alas they don't do it that way. Annual "registration" (pure bureaucracy, our most regressive tax) also costs quite a bit, and in some states they also charge you a percentage of the vehicle value every year in taxes.

Good points. Registration cost is not a big deal in NJ although insurance is one of the highest in the country. But it's a second vehicle, one driver, and I do provide estimated miles per year to the insurance co. every year on their form so as a 21-year-old vehicle and with a big deductible, the only big expense is liability. Some insurers are offering mileage-based coverage now but I haven't investigated it. With retirement looming, that may make sense for me going forward (pre-COVID, my daily commute was 60 miles roundtrip).

I'd almost certainly have a second vehicle anyway, just as a backup. This way I have a soaring-specific vehicle. I can drive it to the office if I have to but typically only to put a few miles on it to keep it running. And we did use it last year for a family reunion trip.

Frankly, as much as I sleep in it at contests (and to/from for long hauls), I'm still ahead on $ even though that's more of a benefit than a primary reason for having it. If I tried to justify my soaring expenses based on cost or ROI, I'd have to get out of the sport. And sleeping in the van every night isn't for everyone. I get odd looks each time I show up at a contest and tell them where I'm staying.

Speaking of which, the one reason I didn't consider a pickup truck is the sleeping capacity. With my family size at home at the time, I would have had to go the crew cab route and that limits the bed length and, hence, sleeping options. If not for that, I would definitely have looked at 4WD pickup trucks, in particular as the weather in NJ where I live makes AWD a nice thing during the winter.

The point several have made is that you have to define your personal objective(s) and criteria, then evaluate each option against those to arrive at the best choice. For me it was a used cargo van that I converted myself and am still using almost 20 years later.

Chip Bearden
JB
  #44  
Old October 31st 20, 06:29 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jonathan St. Cloud
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Default Truck vs Car as a tow vehicle

On Friday, October 30, 2020 at 5:57:17 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, October 25, 2020 at 2:23:41 PM UTC-4, Chris Behm wrote:
I am wondering how often a truck for towing a glider trailer might be an advantage? I have yet to buy my first glider, but of course and thinking that the next vehicle I purchase should be a good one to tow with (Incidentally, thinking of the GMC/Chevy Canyon/Colorado, with the 2.8L inline 4 diesel).
But I am wondering how often that a truck is a better choice, all things considered.

Thanks.

Regards,
"Target"

I'll probably go against the grain of many responders, but here goes.
I have been a very active pilot, flying 4-6 contests a year and moving trailers to my shop on a regular basis.
For more than 40 years I have used my regular daily driver car. All have been intermediate sized vehicles, selected with towing capability in mind. Most are V8, good to excellent suspension sedans.
Best of all time- Jaguar XJ-6 quite a while ago. Comfortable, excellent towing, good to drive all day.
Current primary- older Lincoln LS. Good to excellent towing up to and including Cobra with ASK-21. 23 mpg on the highway with my Cobra/ASG-29.
I have never seen the need for a true truck.
We now have a Lincoln MKX cross over. Very good towing, lots of space, all wheel drive, higher ground clearance. Not as much fun to drive as the LS.
My wife has a Jaguar XF cross over. Tows very well. Same attributes as the MKX.
The two recent vehicles acquired mostly because they are easier to get in and out of for less flexible people.
Most current cross over vehicles can make good to vehicles, given good suspensions and short rear overhangs. They also tend to have robust drivetrains.
I don't need no pick 'em up truck.
FWIW
UH

"I have never seen the need for a true truck" For the life of me, I can't believe someone would actually post those words! While, technically true, it just feels like
the first time my Father didn't let me win. I grew up in Idaho, and have had a 4 X Pick Up truck my entire life. Just had to rebuild the differential because I have never used the 4x,
but damnit, I have it!
  #45  
Old October 31st 20, 06:38 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Default Truck vs Car as a tow vehicle

Funny!

When I showed up at TSA (Texas Soaring Association) with a 1988 Ford
F-150 extended cab, long bed, 4WD truck, I was asked if that wasn't
overkill. But when I moved to Colorado 2 years later, it was just right!

Dan
5J

On 10/31/20 11:29 AM, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
"I have never seen the need for a true truck" For the life of me, I can't believe someone would actually post those words! While, technically true, it just feels like
the first time my Father didn't let me win. I grew up in Idaho, and have had a 4 X Pick Up truck my entire life. Just had to rebuild the differential because I have never used the 4x,
but damnit, I have it!

  #46  
Old October 31st 20, 06:59 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
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Posts: 1,939
Default Truck vs Car as a tow vehicle

wrote on 10/30/2020 5:57 AM:
On Sunday, October 25, 2020 at 2:23:41 PM UTC-4, Chris Behm wrote:
I am wondering how often a truck for towing a glider trailer might be an advantage? I have yet to buy my first glider, but of course and thinking that the next vehicle I purchase should be a good one to tow with (Incidentally, thinking of the GMC/Chevy Canyon/Colorado, with the 2.8L inline 4 diesel).
But I am wondering how often that a truck is a better choice, all things considered.

Thanks.

Regards,
"Target"


I'll probably go against the grain of many responders, but here goes.
I have been a very active pilot, flying 4-6 contests a year and moving trailers to my shop on a regular basis.
For more than 40 years I have used my regular daily driver car. All have been intermediate sized vehicles, selected with towing capability in mind. Most are V8, good to excellent suspension sedans.
Best of all time- Jaguar XJ-6 quite a while ago. Comfortable, excellent towing, good to drive all day.
Current primary- older Lincoln LS. Good to excellent towing up to and including Cobra with ASK-21. 23 mpg on the highway with my Cobra/ASG-29.
I have never seen the need for a true truck.
We now have a Lincoln MKX cross over. Very good towing, lots of space, all wheel drive, higher ground clearance. Not as much fun to drive as the LS.
My wife has a Jaguar XF cross over. Tows very well. Same attributes as the MKX.
The two recent vehicles acquired mostly because they are easier to get in and out of for less flexible people.
Most current cross over vehicles can make good to vehicles, given good suspensions and short rear overhangs. They also tend to have robust drivetrains..
I don't need no pick 'em up truck.
FWIW


And now that you have a motorglider, the likelihood of needing a true truck is even smaller.
That applies more widely, too, as the percentage motorgliders is increasing. I've also noticed
glider pilots are not as bold as they were 40 years (even the ones under 50), their gliders
have better performance, and the crews are staying home, which leads to more "landouts" at
airports than fields.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
  #47  
Old November 2nd 20, 03:20 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
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Default Truck vs Car as a tow vehicle

On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 9:31:24 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
Remember also two truisms about 4WD: 4WD gets you further in before you
get stuck, and ALL vehicles (these days) have 4 wheel brakes (that's for
all the 4WD guys that jam the throttle on icy roads).

Dan
5J

On 10/29/20 9:36 AM, 2G wrote:
On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 4:41:08 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 10:30:16 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Tuesday, October 27, 2020 at 6:43:15 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, October 25, 2020 at 11:23:41 AM UTC-7, Chris Behm wrote:
I am wondering how often a truck for towing a glider trailer might be an advantage? I have yet to buy my first glider, but of course and thinking that the next vehicle I purchase should be a good one to tow with (Incidentally, thinking of the GMC/Chevy Canyon/Colorado, with the 2.8L inline 4 diesel).
But I am wondering how often that a truck is a better choice, all things considered.

Thanks.

Regards,
"Target"

I tow with a 1997 F150 and a Lexus RX300 SUV which is AWD and has a tow package. They both do a pretty good job towing my single seat glider in a Komet trailer. I prefer the Lexus as it drives nicer and you can haul the guys to dinner when out on an encampment. There’s plenty of room in the back with the seats folded down for equipment.

I would recommend 4WD/AWD pickup or mid size SUV. Make sure it comes with a tow package in either case.
AWD is significantly different from 4WD - AWD delivers power only to the rear wheels until traction is lost, then it transfers power to the other wheels. 4WD delivers power to all wheels, regardless of whether or not they have traction. In the time period that AWD senses traction loss and transfers power, you can lose control.

Tom
I was thinking about when you need to get in that muddy pasture or farmers field. I typically drive my F150 in 2WD. No control issues at all.


The time will come when you realize that you need 4WD because you will be stuck. I needed 4WD just to get into my backyard. It came in particularly handy when I did a long retrieve in Nevada and was in 4WD for 50-60 miles of back roads, some of which were flooded. Remember, you only need one bad point to get stuck.

Tom


Sounds more like urban myths to me. I have heard similar things said about open class gliders. I have used my 4WD vehicles MANY times to avoid getting stuck and spinning out, especially when I was skiing. With 2WD once you have lost traction on either driven wheel you ARE stuck or are spinning out because of how the differential works. 4WD, however, is not a substitute for common sense.

Tom
  #48  
Old November 2nd 20, 03:27 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dave Nadler
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Default Truck vs Car as a tow vehicle

On Sunday, November 1, 2020 at 9:20:07 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
With 2WD once you have lost traction on either driven wheel
you ARE stuck or are spinning out because of how the differential works.


Incorrect for modern vehicles equipped with limited-slip differentials...

  #49  
Old November 2nd 20, 04:59 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Craig Reinholt
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Posts: 121
Default Truck vs Car as a tow vehicle

I've towed many years and many miles with both a Toyota Tacoma and Acura MDX. Both towed my gliders very well. Choose a vehicle that best suits your off gliding needs that is also robust enough to tow. FWIW.
Craig
  #50  
Old November 2nd 20, 05:48 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
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Posts: 1,939
Default Truck vs Car as a tow vehicle

Dave Nadler wrote on 11/2/2020 6:27 AM:
On Sunday, November 1, 2020 at 9:20:07 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
With 2WD once you have lost traction on either driven wheel
you ARE stuck or are spinning out because of how the differential works.


Incorrect for modern vehicles equipped with limited-slip differentials...

And with various styles of "electronic stability control", which use methods like braking the
spinning wheel to allow the differential to send power to the wheel with traction.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
 




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