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#31
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_Glider_Towplane_Mid-air_–_TP_PowerFLARM_Inop
Correct, bunted and midair entered on my tablet. Dratted autocorrect. It has just done the same again. I should have proof read before hitting post.
To answer another question - the perspex of my canopy departed from the shock of the collision. I found myself pointing at the ground, hanging from my straps in the open air. However I have no doubt there would have been plenty of time to jettison the canopy. The pilot of the other glider an ASW27 with a forward hinged canopy (and spinning with a wing broken off) managed to exit without jettisoning the canopy. Neither of us was hurt - we were amazingly lucky. Incidentally this was in 2003 - I am convinced that this was one crash which would have been prevented by Flarm. |
#32
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_Glider_Towplane_Mid-air_–_TP_PowerFLARM_Inop
On Wednesday, February 12, 2020 at 11:14:50 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
On Wednesday, February 12, 2020 at 8:24:05 AM UTC-8, Tango Eight wrote: On Tuesday, February 11, 2020 at 11:46:52 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote: You can't hardly blame the glider pilot: they were flying straight ahead and were struck from behind. The tow pilot is clearly the one at fault. Tom There's one thing we know for sure about accident reports: they aren't 100% accurate. I think we ought to hesitate to convict someone we've never met based on evidence that can't be verified. The report had the tracks of the two aircraft. Tom The report has a two dimensional cartoon. To the extent that the cartoon is accurate, I think you'd be wrong to lay all the blame on the tow pilot. -Evan |
#33
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Quote:
When I fly I'm assuming the tow pilot will turn/dive left and head for downwind pattern entry. 99% of the time this has been the case for me but I always try to maintain visual . One day the 1% occurrence happened when I released and turned right into severe sink and the tow pilot ended up in 1000' per minute lift . After a quick trip down I asked him why he climbed rather than dove his comment was "No matter what direction he turned he was going up". Unknown weather a factor in this accident ? Last edited by Delta8 : February 13th 20 at 12:46 PM. |
#34
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_Glider_Towplane_Mid-air_–_TP_PowerFLARM_Inop
On Wednesday, February 12, 2020 at 8:41:55 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
Point taken, but a soft release is never a good thing from the tow pilot's perspective.Â* When flying my glider I seldom released softly but I always announced, "5J's off, thanks!" On 2/11/2020 9:46 PM, 2G wrote: On Tuesday, February 11, 2020 at 10:53:29 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote: When I was towing, I would visually confirm that the glider was off and then roll steeply and dive.Â* If I hadn't felt the glider get off, I would fly straight and level for a bit to assure clearance before beginning a more moderate descent.Â* I also maintained awareness of any gliders that had not climbed away. I would blame both of the pilots in this accident but would assign most of the blame to the tow pilot.Â* Making what amounts to a level turn just after release is asking for trouble. On 2/11/2020 8:51 AM, Waveguru wrote: This seems to happen every few years, where the tow plane makes a left turn and the glider make a right and they come around and collide. I changed the way we do it here so that the glider only makes a slight right turn, and then keeps his eye on the tow plane, so that at least one of the pair of planes can more easily maintain separation. When both planes make a 360° turn, neither of them can see the other. This kind of accident is the result. Boggs -- Dan, 5J You can't hardly blame the glider pilot: they were flying straight ahead and were struck from behind. The tow pilot is clearly the one at fault. Tom -- Dan, 5J There's been mention of people trained to announce the release on the radio.. Should not this be in the SOPs of the operation? It is wherever I fly - glider is ALWAYS to announce release, tow plane acknowledges. If you aren't going to communicate with the aircraft 200 ft away, why have a radio at all? |
#35
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_Glider_Towplane_Mid-air_–_TP_PowerFLARM_Inop
TSB Canada informed me that the towplane track came from its GPS. The glider PowerFLARM was destroyed, but they were able to retrieve the post release glider track. TSB does not put up public dockets like the NTSB.
I had a tow behind the accident C-182 last year and turned right after release into a hopeful thermal. About 270° through the turn I saw the towplane coming back at the same altitude and promptly steepened my turn. Heard nothing from my PowerFLARM and did not think to see if the PF display showed the towplane as I was fully occupied staying out of its way. Possibly the towplane PF may have been inop. On a somewhat disturbing note the presence of a PowerFLARM in a private glider brought to the field has delayed the annual sign-off. It seems the AME (Canadian for A&P) is under scrutiny by Transport Canada for signing off on gliders (and possibly a towplane) with PowerFLARM installed. |
#36
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UmU6IF9HbGlkZXJfVG93cGxhbmVfTWlkLWFpcl/igJNfVFBfUG93ZXJGTEFSTV9Jbm9w
At 16:14 13 February 2020, jfitch wrote:
On Wednesday, February 12, 2020 at 8:41:55 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote: Point taken, but a soft release is never a good thing from the tow=20 pilot's perspective.=C2=A0 When flying my glider I seldom released softly= but=20 I always announced, "5J's off, thanks!" =20 On 2/11/2020 9:46 PM, 2G wrote: On Tuesday, February 11, 2020 at 10:53:29 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote: When I was towing, I would visually confirm that the glider was off an= d then roll steeply and dive.=C2=A0 If I hadn't felt the glider get off,= I would fly straight and level for a bit to assure clearance before beginning a more moderate descent.=C2=A0 I also maintained awareness o= f any gliders that had not climbed away. I would blame both of the pilots in this accident but would assign mos= t of the blame to the tow pilot.=C2=A0 Making what amounts to a level tu= rn just after release is asking for trouble. On 2/11/2020 8:51 AM, Waveguru wrote: This seems to happen every few years, where the tow plane makes a lef= t turn and the glider make a right and they come around and collide. I cha= nged the way we do it here so that the glider only makes a slight right tur= n, and then keeps his eye on the tow plane, so that at least one of the pai= r of planes can more easily maintain separation. When both planes make a 3= 60=C2=B0 turn, neither of them can see the other. This kind of accident is= the result. Boggs --=20 Dan, 5J You can't hardly blame the glider pilot: they were flying straight ahea= d and were struck from behind. The tow pilot is clearly the one at fault. Tom =20 --=20 Dan, 5J There's been mention of people trained to announce the release on the radio= .. Should not this be in the SOPs of the operation? It is wherever I fly - g= lider is ALWAYS to announce release, tow plane acknowledges. If you aren't = going to communicate with the aircraft 200 ft away, why have a radio at all= ? My club has a "no radio unless circuit calls" rule.. I ignore it and thank the tug so he knows I've released and accept any reprimands. |
#37
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Glider Towplane Mid-air – TP PowerFLARM Inop
I fly in differnt countries, and on occasion there are rocks on my right hand side. There is no "on fits all" rule, just airmanship.
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#38
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Glider Towplane Mid-air – TP PowerFLARM Inop
It's complicated. I was on tow at a contest. The glider on tow ahead of us released and did a shallow 270, crossing back over the path he'd just flown.. I watch him come around as my towplane continued to climb. I should have said something but I judged we'd be clear so didn't (mistake). The glider pilot saw us and, startled, dove under our path (he was under it anyway by then) yelling about almost being hit by the towplane. The towpilot admitted he never saw the glider. Lotta of mistakes, including my own. A learning experience. Both other pilots were older/experienced/high time.
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#39
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Glider Towplane Mid-air – TP PowerFLARM Inop
On Thursday, February 13, 2020 at 4:26:00 PM UTC-5, wrote:
It's complicated. I was on tow at a contest. The glider on tow ahead of us released and did a shallow 270, crossing back over the path he'd just flown. I watch him come around as my towplane continued to climb. I should have said something but I judged we'd be clear so didn't (mistake). The glider pilot saw us and, startled, dove under our path (he was under it anyway by then) yelling about almost being hit by the towplane. The towpilot admitted he never saw the glider. Lotta of mistakes, including my own. A learning experience. Both other pilots were older/experienced/high time. Sorry, finger slipped on my mobile phone. Not much to add except that it's not always a single towplane/glider combo involved, especially at busy operations and even more so at a contest. Chip Bearden "JB" |
#40
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_Glider_Towplane_Mid-air_–_TP_PowerFLARM_Inop
A couple of comments:
A tug circling back at the same altitude is a critical safety risk. I would say that some towing procedures need to be established and, if it was the same tow pilot as the accident, he should look for something else to do. Does Transport Canada have a problem with PowerFlarm or is it a problem with the installation methods? On 2/13/2020 11:05 AM, George Haeh wrote: TSB Canada informed me that the towplane track came from its GPS. The glider PowerFLARM was destroyed, but they were able to retrieve the post release glider track. TSB does not put up public dockets like the NTSB. I had a tow behind the accident C-182 last year and turned right after release into a hopeful thermal. About 270° through the turn I saw the towplane coming back at the same altitude and promptly steepened my turn. Heard nothing from my PowerFLARM and did not think to see if the PF display showed the towplane as I was fully occupied staying out of its way. Possibly the towplane PF may have been inop. On a somewhat disturbing note the presence of a PowerFLARM in a private glider brought to the field has delayed the annual sign-off. It seems the AME (Canadian for A&P) is under scrutiny by Transport Canada for signing off on gliders (and possibly a towplane) with PowerFLARM installed. -- Dan, 5J |
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