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#1
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Hey Dudley, detailed analysis of these?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4_iJ...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZN1lC...eature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9txDhi5wC2A Have my own notions, but would be interested from a pros viewpoint. I'm assuming that mechanical was not a factor in any of these, BTW.Might have been, but it appears that in each case the pilot went in with no commital gates and no escape route. Bertie |
#2
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Hey Dudley, detailed analysis of these?
Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4_iJ...eature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZN1lC...eature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9txDhi5wC2A Have my own notions, but would be interested from a pros viewpoint. I'm assuming that mechanical was not a factor in any of these, BTW.Might have been, but it appears that in each case the pilot went in with no commital gates and no escape route. Bertie Can't say much about the Extra (at least it looked like an Extra) but the Hurricane and the King Cobra are accidents I've been involved in with safety discussions within the war bird demonstration community. To me, the KC accident looked like the result of a way too low energy state going through the top gate. He should have had at least 150 indicated inverted on top but it looked like he lost his energy to drag going up the up line by pulling too much g. He was practically dead in the water on top but apparently at fairly high power. This looked like it torqued him in roll pretty good and he lost it coming through the gate. He recovered as the angle of attack narrowed back into the work range but by then he was committed way too nose low and had no radial g available to affect the recovery. The Hurricane looks like it will come down to a simple brain fart. The guy was very qualified and had experience. So far it looks like he simply committed to a Split S below his minimum AGL parameter for the Hurricane. This one is very similar to the Thunderbird F16 accident at Mountain Home AFB where the team lost a Viper. Brain fart! -- Dudley Henriques |
#3
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Hey Dudley, detailed analysis of these?
Dudley Henriques wrote in
: Bertie the Bunyip wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4_iJ...eature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZN1lC...eature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9txDhi5wC2A Have my own notions, but would be interested from a pros viewpoint. I'm assuming that mechanical was not a factor in any of these, BTW.Might have been, but it appears that in each case the pilot went in with no commital gates and no escape route. Bertie Can't say much about the Extra (at least it looked like an Extra) but the Hurricane and the King Cobra are accidents I've been involved in with safety discussions within the war bird demonstration community. OK, the first one should have been the T6 slow roll where he dished out in the end.(orange one in south america?) Looks like he had nothing even beginning the roll and had completely lost the plot by the time he reached even 45 degrees and should have just thrown it away at that point. To me, the KC accident looked like the result of a way too low energy state going through the top gate. He should have had at least 150 indicated inverted on top but it looked like he lost his energy to drag going up the up line by pulling too much g. He was practically dead in the water on top but apparently at fairly high power. This looked like it torqued him in roll pretty good and he lost it coming through the gate. He recovered as the angle of attack narrowed back into the work range but by then he was committed way too nose low and had no radial g available to affect the recovery. OK, pretty much as I saw it as well (though I ould never have put it so well!) But it seems to me he should have been formulating some sort of plan to get out as he neared the top of the first loop and saw it all going wrong. Never flown anything as powerful, fast and heavy as that doing aerobatics, of course, but it seems to me he had only two options after he passed 90deg; a hammerhead might have been a bit ropey at that altitude in that airplane, and I don't know if they're even on the menu in that thing. A hammerhead being ruled out for whatever reason, I'd just pitch over forward hard and bump my way out if the airspeed was that far gone. The bottom of the list would be to pull hard and then roll out, which is what he did, intetionally or otherwise, but if he had pulled a bit harder a bit earlier, he'd at least have exited the torque roll a bit more nose down which might have avoided the secondary problem. Did it have fuel injection? Was he having to think about avoiding negative G? The Hurricane looks like it will come down to a simple brain fart. The guy was very qualified and had experience. So far it looks like he simply committed to a Split S below his minimum AGL parameter for the Hurricane. This one is very similar to the Thunderbird F16 accident at Mountain Home AFB where the team lost a Viper. Brain fart! Again, exactly as I saw it. He was screwed the second he rolled over. Reason I ask is I was just wondering how good my eye was after so long away from aerobatics. Bertie |
#4
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Hey Dudley, detailed analysis of these?
Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in : Bertie the Bunyip wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4_iJ...eature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZN1lC...eature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9txDhi5wC2A Have my own notions, but would be interested from a pros viewpoint. I'm assuming that mechanical was not a factor in any of these, BTW.Might have been, but it appears that in each case the pilot went in with no commital gates and no escape route. Bertie Can't say much about the Extra (at least it looked like an Extra) but the Hurricane and the King Cobra are accidents I've been involved in with safety discussions within the war bird demonstration community. OK, the first one should have been the T6 slow roll where he dished out in the end.(orange one in south america?) Looks like he had nothing even beginning the roll and had completely lost the plot by the time he reached even 45 degrees and should have just thrown it away at that point. To me, the KC accident looked like the result of a way too low energy state going through the top gate. He should have had at least 150 indicated inverted on top but it looked like he lost his energy to drag going up the up line by pulling too much g. He was practically dead in the water on top but apparently at fairly high power. This looked like it torqued him in roll pretty good and he lost it coming through the gate. He recovered as the angle of attack narrowed back into the work range but by then he was committed way too nose low and had no radial g available to affect the recovery. OK, pretty much as I saw it as well (though I ould never have put it so well!) But it seems to me he should have been formulating some sort of plan to get out as he neared the top of the first loop and saw it all going wrong. Never flown anything as powerful, fast and heavy as that doing aerobatics, of course, but it seems to me he had only two options after he passed 90deg; a hammerhead might have been a bit ropey at that altitude in that airplane, and I don't know if they're even on the menu in that thing. A hammerhead being ruled out for whatever reason, I'd just pitch over forward hard and bump my way out if the airspeed was that far gone. The bottom of the list would be to pull hard and then roll out, which is what he did, intetionally or otherwise, but if he had pulled a bit harder a bit earlier, he'd at least have exited the torque roll a bit more nose down which might have avoided the secondary problem. Did it have fuel injection? Was he having to think about avoiding negative G? The Hurricane looks like it will come down to a simple brain fart. The guy was very qualified and had experience. So far it looks like he simply committed to a Split S below his minimum AGL parameter for the Hurricane. This one is very similar to the Thunderbird F16 accident at Mountain Home AFB where the team lost a Viper. Brain fart! Again, exactly as I saw it. He was screwed the second he rolled over. Reason I ask is I was just wondering how good my eye was after so long away from aerobatics. Bertie Didn't see the T6 roll on these links, but I think I remember the crash. The 6 has a lousy roll rate and loses energy like a brick when rolling and doing 2 in a row while down in the weeds can bite you in the butt dishing out. More than one guy's lost a T6 this way. The Cobra; his best chance would have been to anticipate the torque roll carrying all that MP and throttle back to idle before it torqued out on him, then rolling to the nearest horizon after a mistake like he made on the way up. In certain conditions you just don't get a second chance in prop fighters. -- Dudley Henriques |
#5
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Hey Dudley, detailed analysis of these?
Dudley Henriques wrote in
: Didn't see the T6 roll on these links, but I think I remember the crash. The 6 has a lousy roll rate and loses energy like a brick when rolling and doing 2 in a row while down in the weeds can bite you in the butt dishing out. More than one guy's lost a T6 this way. Yeah, gave you the wrong one the sifrst time and couldn't get it when I replied. Youtube seemed to be down or something. Still is. He just did a single roll. It's pretty obvious from the get go that he hasn't got a chance. By the time he's 90 deg left the nose is well down on the horizon and he's commited to some major thrashinbg around on the elevators and rudder to keep the thing goin which degenerates into dishing out of the bottom in a big way towards the end. I am surprised about your comments on it losing energy, though.. The Cobra; his best chance would have been to anticipate the torque roll carrying all that MP and throttle back to idle before it torqued out on him, then rolling to the nearest horizon after a mistake like he made on the way up. In certain conditions you just don't get a second chance in prop fighters. OK, that makes sense. I get the feeling he was a bit surprised by the time he reached the 3/8ths point of the loop and had no real plan out. They do teach this nowadays, right? I was quizzed mercilessly about escape routes from all sorts of fjukkups (all of which I had a good answer for) by the FAA inspector that signed my waiver. Do inspectors even do those anymore? Evrythng else seems to be done by someone else these days. Bertie |
#6
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Hey Dudley, detailed analysis of these?
"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message ... Bertie the Bunyip wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4_iJ...eature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZN1lC...eature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9txDhi5wC2A Have my own notions, but would be interested from a pros viewpoint. I'm assuming that mechanical was not a factor in any of these, BTW.Might have been, but it appears that in each case the pilot went in with no commital gates and no escape route. Bertie Can't say much about the Extra (at least it looked like an Extra) but the Hurricane and the King Cobra are accidents I've been involved in with safety discussions within the war bird demonstration community. To me, the KC accident looked like the result of a way too low energy state going through the top gate. He should have had at least 150 indicated inverted on top but it looked like he lost his energy to drag going up the up line by pulling too much g. He was practically dead in the water on top but apparently at fairly high power. This looked like it torqued him in roll pretty good and he lost it coming through the gate. He recovered as the angle of attack narrowed back into the work range but by then he was committed way too nose low and had no radial g available to affect the recovery. What was his "out" once he was inverted and slow? I assume the proper recovery is to pull back the power to a manageable level, unload the airplane, and get the nose below the horizon in order to build some airspeed. Once the airplane is flying again, feed in the power while rolling level, then pull... The Hurricane looks like it will come down to a simple brain fart. The guy was very qualified and had experience. So far it looks like he simply committed to a Split S below his minimum AGL parameter for the Hurricane. This one is very similar to the Thunderbird F16 accident at Mountain Home AFB where the team lost a Viper. Brain fart! -- Dudley Henriques |
#7
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Hey Dudley, detailed analysis of these?
"Viperdoc" wrote in
: Looking at the Extra, it looked like his tumbles were done pretty low. Most of the ones I've seen and tried are some variations of outside snap inputs, and you generally end up with zero airspeed at full power. If you watch the pros at an airshow, they tend to do snaps and tumbles at a reasonable altitude, and only rolling stuff at the bottom of looping figures down low. It looks like he kind of was in a position of low kinetic energy (airspeed), and low potential energy (low altitude). It's hard to recover from that combination. Yeah, that one was pretty obvious. Not a lot of speed and I'd say he probably didn't even have a handle on his altitude at that stage. Another case of ignoring gates or letting the proceedings get too far ahead of you to keep up. By the way, WTF is a tumble? Is that what you call those tight little barrel rolls that are all the rage these days or are you talking about a lomcevok? As someone pointed out to me earlier via e-mail, those you tube comments make usenet look positively educational! Bertie |
#8
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Hey Dudley, detailed analysis of these?
"Kyle Boatright" wrote in
: What was his "out" once he was inverted and slow? I assume the proper recovery is to pull back the power to a manageable level, unload the airplane, and get the nose below the horizon in order to build some airspeed. Once the airplane is flying again, feed in the power while rolling level, then pull... Yeah, exactly. Can't see any other way out at the top, but I would have thought he should have recognised the mess a lot earlier, i.e., at or before reaching 90deg. Looks like he was braving it out for the benefit of the crowd. A bit like this guy.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUzjLxqHy5g The show must go on, huh? Bertie |
#9
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Hey Dudley, detailed analysis of these?
"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message .. . "Kyle Boatright" wrote in : What was his "out" once he was inverted and slow? I assume the proper recovery is to pull back the power to a manageable level, unload the airplane, and get the nose below the horizon in order to build some airspeed. Once the airplane is flying again, feed in the power while rolling level, then pull... Yeah, exactly. Can't see any other way out at the top, but I would have thought he should have recognised the mess a lot earlier, i.e., at or before reaching 90deg. Looks like he was braving it out for the benefit of the crowd. A bit like this guy.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUzjLxqHy5g The show must go on, huh? Bertie The strange thing about the Yak near-pancake is that the guy comes over the top with plenty of airspeed, gets the nose down, and then doesn't pull enough G's until very late when he's past the vertical. Another quarter or half G after he'd gotten the nose down and he wouldn't have had a memorable recovery. KB |
#10
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Hey Dudley, detailed analysis of these?
"Kyle Boatright" wrote in
: "Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message .. . "Kyle Boatright" wrote in : What was his "out" once he was inverted and slow? I assume the proper recovery is to pull back the power to a manageable level, unload the airplane, and get the nose below the horizon in order to build some airspeed. Once the airplane is flying again, feed in the power while rolling level, then pull... Yeah, exactly. Can't see any other way out at the top, but I would have thought he should have recognised the mess a lot earlier, i.e., at or before reaching 90deg. Looks like he was braving it out for the benefit of the crowd. A bit like this guy.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUzjLxqHy5g The show must go on, huh? Bertie The strange thing about the Yak near-pancake is that the guy comes over the top with plenty of airspeed, gets the nose down, and then doesn't pull enough G's until very late when he's past the vertical. Another quarter or half G after he'd gotten the nose down and he wouldn't have had a memorable recovery. Yes, well that;'s all in the name of getting it close enough to make it spectacular for the crowd of course. This guy was less lucky.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifoHKZw_JQs Bertie |
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