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#11
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CFII Before CFI
On Aug 17, 7:15 pm, "Jim Burns" wrote:
I've read that some part 141 schools will do the CFII before the CFI due to lower time and PTS requirements for the CFII. Jim If you know that you want to end up with both the CFII and the CFI (ASEL for instance) then getting the CFII first is probably not a bad idea because instead of one really hard checkride (the initial CFI) and then a really easy checkride (the CFII add-on), you have to medium hard checkrides (CFII initial (including all the FOI), then just the CFI(ASEL for instance) add on. However, if you get the CFII and quite w/o getting the CFI-ASEL/AMEL/etc then you have an almost worthless rating. -Robert |
#12
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CFII Before CFI
On Aug 17, 3:50 pm, kevmor wrote:
I thought a CFII was an add-on to CFI? In the really old days (before me), the CFI was an add-on to the CP- ASEL rating and the CFII was free if you were a CFI and instrument rated. Actually, I believe a lot of countries don't offer a CFII rating and just allow all CFIs to be CFIIs. -Robert |
#13
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CFII Before CFI
Ol Shy & Bashful wrote:
Anyone care to chime in on this one? An applicant going for the CFII before the CFI. Am in process of doing it right now with a student. Odd as it may seem....... Oh Yeh, its for helicopter...... The only advantage I know is that you can do the briefer instrument ride with the FAA examiner (most FSDO's require the initial ride to be done with a real FAA employee) while hte longer category ride can be done with a DE. |
#14
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CFII Before CFI
"Ron Natalie" wrote in message ... The only advantage I know is that you can do the briefer instrument ride with the FAA examiner (most FSDO's require the initial ride to be done with a real FAA employee) while hte longer category ride can be done with a DE. A related strategy is to get a CFI-Glider first and then add airplanes later. In that case, both of your rides are likely to be with a DE. There are also some neat jobs out there for CFIGs and commercial tow pilots. Vaughn |
#15
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CFII Before CFI
Robert M. Gary wrote
If you know that you want to end up with both the CFII and the CFI (ASEL for instance) then getting the CFII first is probably not a bad idea because instead of one really hard checkride (the initial CFI) and then a really easy checkride (the CFII add-on), you have to medium hard checkrides (CFII initial (including all the FOI), then just the CFI(ASEL for instance) add on. However, if you get the CFII and quite w/o getting the CFI-ASEL/AMEL/etc then you have an almost worthless rating. It is indeed one of the problems in aviation today that we have Flight Instructors who do not read and understand the regulations. We are NOT CFIs nor CFIIs....The FAR defines our certificates as FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR. In fact, the remainder of the FARs refer to the requirement for an AUTHORIZED INSTRUCTOR. An obvious error in the quoted text above besides the use of CFI, is the list of ratings that a Flight Instructor may have on his Certificate. A Flight Instructor Certificate will not show LAND/SEA as a class rating for the AIRPLANE category rating, only SINGLE ENGINE/MULTI ENGINE. If we can stop talking about CFI/CFII and understand the concept of FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR with RATINGS, the answers are quite simple. First, a FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR CERTIFICATE for aircraft must be issued with a CATEGORY and CLASS rating. Second, a FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR CERTIFICATE for instruments must be issued with either an AIRPLANE, HELICOPTER, or POWERED-LIFT rating. Nowhere in my 1977 copy of AC 60-14, Aviation Instructor's Handbook nor the current CFRs, is there any reference to a CFI/CFII. Where did you guys pick-up this terminology? Why can it not go the way of the BFR? Oh...you guys still do BFRs instead of FLIGHT REVIEWS??? Following is the pertinent portion of CFR Title 14, Chapter 1, Part 61. (c) The following ratings are placed on a flight instructor certificate when an applicant satisfactorily accomplishes the training and certification requirements for the rating sought: (1) Aircraft category ratings— (i) Airplane. (ii) Rotorcraft. (iii) Glider. (iv) Powered-lift. (2) Airplane class ratings— (i) Single-engine. (ii) Multiengine. (3) Rotorcraft class ratings— (i) Helicopter. (ii) Gyroplane. (4) Instrument ratings— (i) Instrument—Airplane. (ii) Instrument—Helicopter. (iii) Instrument—Powered-lift. |
#16
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CFII Before CFI
On Aug 18, 8:32 am, Bob Moore wrote:
Robert M. Gary wrote If you know that you want to end up with both the CFII and the CFI (ASEL for instance) then getting the CFII first is probably not a bad idea because instead of one really hard checkride (the initial CFI) and then a really easy checkride (the CFII add-on), you have to medium hard checkrides (CFII initial (including all the FOI), then just the CFI(ASEL for instance) add on. However, if you get the CFII and quite w/o getting the CFI-ASEL/AMEL/etc then you have an almost worthless rating. It is indeed one of the problems in aviation today that we have Flight Instructors who do not read and understand the regulations. We are NOT CFIs nor CFIIs....The FAR defines our certificates as FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR. In fact, the remainder of the FARs refer to the requirement for an AUTHORIZED INSTRUCTOR. An obvious error in the quoted text above besides the use of CFI, is the list of ratings that a Flight Instructor may have on his Certificate. A Flight Instructor Certificate will not show LAND/SEA as a class rating for the AIRPLANE category rating, only SINGLE ENGINE/MULTI ENGINE. If we can stop talking about CFI/CFII and understand the concept of FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR with RATINGS, the answers are quite simple. First, a FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR CERTIFICATE for aircraft must be issued with a CATEGORY and CLASS rating. Second, a FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR CERTIFICATE for instruments must be issued with either an AIRPLANE, HELICOPTER, or POWERED-LIFT rating. Nowhere in my 1977 copy of AC 60-14, Aviation Instructor's Handbook nor the current CFRs, is there any reference to a CFI/CFII. Where did you guys pick-up this terminology? Why can it not go the way of the BFR? Oh...you guys still do BFRs instead of FLIGHT REVIEWS??? Following is the pertinent portion of CFR Title 14, Chapter 1, Part 61. (c) The following ratings are placed on a flight instructor certificate when an applicant satisfactorily accomplishes the training and certification requirements for the rating sought: (1) Aircraft category ratings- (i) Airplane. (ii) Rotorcraft. (iii) Glider. (iv) Powered-lift. (2) Airplane class ratings- (i) Single-engine. (ii) Multiengine. (3) Rotorcraft class ratings- (i) Helicopter. (ii) Gyroplane. (4) Instrument ratings- (i) Instrument-Airplane. (ii) Instrument-Helicopter. (iii) Instrument-Powered-lift. Geez Bob I admire your quest to change 50+ years of terminology! Yes you are absolutely correct and I still hear Feds use the term BFR, and from time to time I even hear someone say ATR (and I know you have been around that long). If we were to use the full proper terms, we'd run out of time before we ever got to the meat of the issue! gg Best Personal Regards Rocky ATP ASMELS Rotor IFR CFII/RAM AIGI (and I'll bet everyone knows what all that means) |
#17
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CFII Before CFI
Bob Moore wrote in
46.128: It is indeed one of the problems in aviation today that we have Flight Instructors who do not read and understand the regulations. We are NOT CFIs nor CFIIs....The FAR defines our certificates as FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR. In fact, the remainder of the FARs refer to the requirement for an AUTHORIZED INSTRUCTOR. I'm confused. Doesn't CFI stand for certificated Flight Instructor? Doesn't BFR stand for biennial Flight Review? What is it exactly that you have against abbreviations? I use them for many things - even important things from CRAFT all the way to GUMPS. The problem with the paragraph you quoted was with the use of the terms. Abbreviated or not is really irrelevant to the proper use of a technical term. |
#18
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CFII Before CFI
FARs??? Shouldn't we be using "Code of Federal Regulations, Title 14 -
Aeronautics and Space, Volume (insert #) Chapter (insert #) Part (insert #) as Regulated by the Federal Aviation Admiistration, Department of Transportation, of the United States of America"? How on earth would we know what someone is talking about if we just used "FAR's"? Duh. Jim "Ol Shy & Bashful" wrote in message ups.com... On Aug 18, 8:32 am, Bob Moore wrote: Robert M. Gary wrote If you know that you want to end up with both the CFII and the CFI (ASEL for instance) then getting the CFII first is probably not a bad idea because instead of one really hard checkride (the initial CFI) and then a really easy checkride (the CFII add-on), you have to medium hard checkrides (CFII initial (including all the FOI), then just the CFI(ASEL for instance) add on. However, if you get the CFII and quite w/o getting the CFI-ASEL/AMEL/etc then you have an almost worthless rating. It is indeed one of the problems in aviation today that we have Flight Instructors who do not read and understand the regulations. We are NOT CFIs nor CFIIs....The FAR defines our certificates as FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR. In fact, the remainder of the FARs refer to the requirement for an AUTHORIZED INSTRUCTOR. An obvious error in the quoted text above besides the use of CFI, is the list of ratings that a Flight Instructor may have on his Certificate. A Flight Instructor Certificate will not show LAND/SEA as a class rating for the AIRPLANE category rating, only SINGLE ENGINE/MULTI ENGINE. If we can stop talking about CFI/CFII and understand the concept of FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR with RATINGS, the answers are quite simple. First, a FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR CERTIFICATE for aircraft must be issued with a CATEGORY and CLASS rating. Second, a FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR CERTIFICATE for instruments must be issued with either an AIRPLANE, HELICOPTER, or POWERED-LIFT rating. Nowhere in my 1977 copy of AC 60-14, Aviation Instructor's Handbook nor the current CFRs, is there any reference to a CFI/CFII. Where did you guys pick-up this terminology? Why can it not go the way of the BFR? Oh...you guys still do BFRs instead of FLIGHT REVIEWS??? Following is the pertinent portion of CFR Title 14, Chapter 1, Part 61. (c) The following ratings are placed on a flight instructor certificate when an applicant satisfactorily accomplishes the training and certification requirements for the rating sought: (1) Aircraft category ratings- (i) Airplane. (ii) Rotorcraft. (iii) Glider. (iv) Powered-lift. (2) Airplane class ratings- (i) Single-engine. (ii) Multiengine. (3) Rotorcraft class ratings- (i) Helicopter. (ii) Gyroplane. (4) Instrument ratings- (i) Instrument-Airplane. (ii) Instrument-Helicopter. (iii) Instrument-Powered-lift. Geez Bob I admire your quest to change 50+ years of terminology! Yes you are absolutely correct and I still hear Feds use the term BFR, and from time to time I even hear someone say ATR (and I know you have been around that long). If we were to use the full proper terms, we'd run out of time before we ever got to the meat of the issue! gg Best Personal Regards Rocky ATP ASMELS Rotor IFR CFII/RAM AIGI (and I'll bet everyone knows what all that means) |
#19
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CFII Before CFI
Jim Burns wrote
FARs??? Shouldn't we be using "Code of Federal Regulations, Title 14 - Aeronautics and Space, Volume (insert #) Chapter (insert #) Part (insert #) as Regulated by the Federal Aviation Admiistration, Department of Transportation, of the United States of America"? From my post Following is the pertinent portion of CFR Title 14, Chapter 1, Part 61. Bob |
#20
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CFII Before CFI
Judah wrote:
I'm confused. Doesn't CFI stand for certificated Flight Instructor? The problem with the terms "CFI" vs. "CFII" is that it leads to the common confusion that a CFII is a "more advanced" rating/certificate/whatever than a "just plain CFI". That's not true. I hold two certificates from the FAA. One is my commercial pilot certificate, the other is my flight instructor certificate. Each of those certificates has ratings that go along with it. On my pilot certificate, I've got "airplane single-engine land" and "instrument airplane". On my instructor certificate, I've got "airplane single engine" and "instrument airplane". What makes this confusing is that on the pilot certificate, having the airplane rating was a pre-requisite to getting the instrument rating. This is NOT true for the instructor certificate. While it is common for an instructor to get the airplane rating before the instrument rating, it doesn't have to be that way, and in fact, it's not terribly uncommon for people to get the instrument rating as their initial instructor rating. If for example, I had done that, I would have been able to give instrument instruction (i.e. towards an instrument rating or an IPC) in an Archer to a pilot who already had a single-engine land rating on his pilot certificate, but I would NOT have been able to give somebody primary training or a BFR in that same airplane until I also went out and got an airplane rating. Leave it to the FAA to invent such a bizarre and complex system. |
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