Diamond goal flight rejected due to typo

On Jun 10, 9:02Â*am, Wojciech Scigala wrote:
Użytkownik Scott Alexander napisał:

I want this time to count. Â*Glad you got it approved Evan....anyone
else have any suggestions?

SC3 (valid 2009 AL0 edition), para 4.2.1.c (declaration content):
- glider type, and its registration _or_ serial number _or_ unique
NAC-assigned contest number.

Are SSA contest IDs unique?

Also, SC3 Annex C, para 1.2:
"OOs and National Claim Officers are encouraged to take the position
that, ensuring the rules are met, their goal is to make awards, not turn
them down for minor errors or oversights that do not affect the proof of
a soaring performance."

An OO's special statement about the glider flown should be enough to
solve the case IMHO.

--
WojtuÅ›.net

SSA issued Contest IDs are issued to a pilot and not the glider, and
they are therefore definitely *not* unique to a glider (I owned two
gliders at once both "6DX", but different N-numbers) and AFAIK this
has been the root issue with the IGC and using SSA issues contest IDs
in the IGC file GLIDERID header field.

But yes since the future of mankind does not depend on this, a
statement from the OO that the pilot flew the damn glider should be
enough, especially for a badge flight.

Darryl

Darryl

On Jun 10, 6:43*pm, Scott Alexander
wrote:
SSA contest numbers are unique but they are assigned to a person not a
sailplane. Maybe that is the rub.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yes I own the rights to SA my contest ID. *But suppose my friend let
me use his Discus to do the flight, it wouldn't have made a flip of
difference of the validity of the flight. *Again, the only problem
here is that I typed in SA vs. N-2429. *So therefor it makes the whole
entire claim Invalid.

I appreciate the fact that we have dedicated people in this sport who
are going provide checks and balances to badges and record claims. *I
really do appreciate them. *It would take the fun out of soaring if
somebody set a record using an engine. *But this is overkill.

I got a few emails today on an appeal process. *Hopefully this will
get overturned. *Diamonds don't grow on trees down here in
Memphis....doing the flight again in a club class glider would call
for some more good luck.

I too lost a 500K flight recently due to the same sort of nonsense. I
have been at many SSA sessions where everyone at the table wrings
their hands and says "we aren't getting new people into the sport" and
"our membership is decreasing - what can we do to bring in new
members?". Meanwhile, back at SSA headquarters, badge and record
flights are being rejected right and left for no good reason, thereby
alienating the members we do have. I personally no longer give a
rat's ass about badge and record flights because you have to take two
lawyers and an accountant along with you on the flight, and I only
have a single-place glider.


TA

I personally no longer give a
rat's ass about badge and record flights because you have to take two
lawyers and an accountant along with you on the flight, and I only
have a single-place glider.

TA-

Frank! That is hilarious! Thanks for the laugh!

On Jun 10, 6:28*pm, Frank wrote:
On Jun 10, 6:43*pm, Scott Alexander
wrote:



SSA contest numbers are unique but they are assigned to a person not a
sailplane. Maybe that is the rub.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yes I own the rights to SA my contest ID. *But suppose my friend let
me use his Discus to do the flight, it wouldn't have made a flip of
difference of the validity of the flight. *Again, the only problem
here is that I typed in SA vs. N-2429. *So therefor it makes the whole
entire claim Invalid.

I appreciate the fact that we have dedicated people in this sport who
are going provide checks and balances to badges and record claims. *I
really do appreciate them. *It would take the fun out of soaring if
somebody set a record using an engine. *But this is overkill.

I got a few emails today on an appeal process. *Hopefully this will
get overturned. *Diamonds don't grow on trees down here in
Memphis....doing the flight again in a club class glider would call
for some more good luck.

I too lost a 500K flight recently due to the same sort of nonsense. *I
have been at many SSA sessions where everyone at the table wrings
their hands and says "we aren't getting new people into the sport" and
"our membership is decreasing - what can we do to bring in new
members?". *Meanwhile, back at SSA headquarters, badge and record
flights are being rejected right and left for no good reason, thereby
alienating the members we do have. *I personally no longer give a
rat's ass about badge and record flights because you have to take two
lawyers and an accountant along with you on the flight, and I only
have a single-place glider.

TA

Frank,

I don't think it is the SSA. It is the IGC. The SSA is following the
IGC rules as clarified in painful detail to them by the IGC. If the
SSA decides to just ignore the IGC rules then I could see the final
outcome would be to lose FAI record and badge setting authority. I
agree it's worth identifying the jackass responsible for this, but I
don't think it is the SSA.

Darryl

On Jun 10, 6:25*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:

SSA issued Contest IDs are issued to a pilot and not the glider, and
they are therefore definitely *not* unique to a glider (I owned two
gliders at once both "6DX", but different N-numbers) and AFAIK this
has been the root issue with the IGC and using SSA issues contest IDs
in the IGC file GLIDERID header field.

But it's also true that the glider registration number is not unique
to that airframe serial number, at least in USA. A glider can change
hands and the new owner can apply for a new N number. The original
owner could then apply the original N number to a completely different
glider. Some German manufacturers like to stamp the registration
number on the data plate. Recently the issuance of an airworthiness
certificate was denied until the owner obtained a new data plate that
did not include the N number. Nothing unique about the N number in
USA, they are transferred and reused on different aircraft.

The only things unique are the pilot and the glider serial number. Why
isn't the name of the pilot sufficient.

All that matters is the the verified pilot flew some damn glider over
the required course.

Andy

On 2010/06/10 06:02 PM, Wojciech Scigala wrote:
Użytkownik Scott Alexander napisał:

I want this time to count. Glad you got it approved Evan....anyone
else have any suggestions?
SC3 (valid 2009 AL0 edition), para 4.2.1.c (declaration content):
- glider type, and its registration _or_ serial number _or_ unique
NAC-assigned contest number.

Are SSA contest IDs unique?


Also, SC3 Annex C, para 1.2:
"OOs and National Claim Officers are encouraged to take the position
that, ensuring the rules are met, their goal is to make awards, not turn
them down for minor errors or oversights that do not affect the proof of
a soaring performance."

An OO's special statement about the glider flown should be enough to
solve the case IMHO.

That has certainly been the case till now in South Africa.
If there was no OO - then you may have a problem, because you are
relying on the flight recorder only. IGC in general is reasonable in my
experience.


--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

Użytkownik Grider Pirate napisał:

On top of what Darryl said, why does it matter AT ALL what glider the
flight was made in? The requirements are the same for a 1-26 as for
28 meter, 60/1 glider. I've OO'd a fair number of badge flights in the
last couple years, and don't recall any 'handicap' rating anywhere.
There should be proves that it was a solo flight and no engine has been
used. Identifying the glider also enables to check flight against club logs.

--
WojtuÅ›.net

Scott Alexander wrote:
I received an email stating that my diamond goal flight has been
rejected due to a typo on my igc declaration./snip/
So now I am merely trying to figure out the best way to solve this
claim.

Does anyone have any suggestions of who I might contact to help get
this claim to pass? /snip/

I know nothing of these paperwork trails. But if I am deprived of
something of value, by a typo which is written as requested by a form,
I would send a corrected version, with a polite covering letter from
a lawyer.

Brian W

On Jun 11, 3:00Â*am, Wojciech Scigala wrote:
Użytkownik Grider Pirate napisał:

On top of what Darryl said, why does it matter AT ALL what glider the
flight was made in? Â*The requirements are the same for a 1-26 as for
28 meter, 60/1 glider. I've OO'd a fair number of badge flights in the
last couple years, and don't recall any 'handicap' rating anywhere.

There should be proves that it was a solo flight and no engine has been
used. Identifying the glider also enables to check flight against club logs.

--
WojtuÅ›.net

The only "proof" in many cases it is a solo flight is the OO saying
so. Nothing stops a badge being awarded in a two seater by a solo
pilot. And I doubt clubs or FBO in the USA that has any records that
will catch cases of a (non-student) flying dual.

Again everything comes down to the OO. The OO should be allowed to
state a correction after the flight for the aircraft registration. Its
not like a contest ID incorrectly entered in the IGC file is
practically going to get confused with a USA n-number. The current
anal-retentive current treatment of GLIDERID is pointless and the
impact/annoyance of this is harming promoting the sport of soaring in
the USA. And it is not exactly endearing the IGC or SSA to many USA
pilots.

Darryl

On Jun 10, 6:51*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:

It is saddening to see an otherwise valid badge claim rejected because
of this IGC/FAI stupidity.

I fail to understand the above comment, and the many attacks on FAI
and IGC that pepper this thread. Aside from commonsense, which
suggests that the critical point is: "was the glider in question
positively identified in the pre-flight declaration", the current
Sporting Code says, about glider ID in a pre-flight declaration:

4.2.1c. Glider type, and its registration or serial number or unique
NAC-assigned contest number.

This is a pretty wide definition, the intention (as I understand it,
the Code is not my area within IGC), that's GPS recorders, as you
know) is simply to positively identify the glider to which the
declaration refers.

It is then up to the National gliding authority to interpret the above
in a reasonable way, with knowledge of the circumstances that pertain
(in the case on Glider IDs) in the country concerned. Then there is
the OO concerned, was he or she positive about which glider was
referred to in the declaration, if so, this evidence can be put
forward to the NAC.

Or perhaps I'm missing something?

My glider BGA Competition ID is "60", and I am sure that, if I were to
make a claim, the BGA would accept that, as they have in the past when
I was young enough to make claims for records in the UK.

It's rainy and dull here at the moment, but that's typical weather
this side of the pond! They say that it will be a 500k day tomorrow,
but I am not sure that I believe it.

Ian Strachan
Lasham Gliding Centre, UK