Landing with one spoiler

Ray Hart wrote:

landing, just in case. I wouldn't recommend practising
no-brake landings
though.

This is another thread, but a no spoiler approach is one of the
simplest "advanced" manouvers out there. I only have access to a L-23
and tried this a few months back. I was able to use about as much
runway as the typical normal landing made by others. Spot touchdown
was a bit dicey, but I always got stopped where I had planned.


Gotta give it a try in the ASH-26E sometime. Should I "cheat" and use
landing flap, or give it a shot in thermalling flap?
-Tom

At 02:42 23 September 2005, Cindyask wrote:
We do practice that here.
But many places do not practice for this.
Full spoilers deployed ( to achieve symmetry) through
approach, from
the point of unlocking through flare/round out and
touchdown. The
typical error we find made by pilots in this configuration
is the
tendency to 'hurry' on approach, with extra airspeed,
and not
understand how it will affect their glide slope.

It should be much less of a handling worry to make
the glider
symmetrical, and control the approach in a regular
configuration, than
to begin to think of all the 'different' things you
could do to
accommodate the asymmetry.

Just because there are several stories reported here
of pilots who
either 'didn't notice' their configuration issues,
or handled
them with aplomb, remember that this is frequently
Not The Case for
just as many others.

We also practice/teach approaches with spoilers completely
closed, but
that is a different thread.

Cindy B
Caracole Soaring


How do you practice asymetric airbrake approaches?

5Z wrote:
Ray Hart wrote:


landing, just in case. I wouldn't recommend practising
no-brake landings
though.


This is another thread, but a no spoiler approach is one of the
simplest "advanced" manouvers out there. I only have access to a L-23
and tried this a few months back. I was able to use about as much
runway as the typical normal landing made by others. Spot touchdown
was a bit dicey, but I always got stopped where I had planned.


Gotta give it a try in the ASH-26E sometime. Should I "cheat" and use
landing flap, or give it a shot in thermalling flap?
-Tom

Cheat. The chances of losing both at the same time are pretty small.
My Mosquito or a Ventus are a little different. I don't think roll
would be an issue with one side fully deployed and the other stowed, but
yaw could be considerable!

Shawn

I tried it a few times in an L-13 in response to an inspector's
interpretation of the PTS. It floated a *long* way. Maybe yawing while in
ground effect could have added drag to help make the landing more precise,
but I didn't try it... we just decided you need a very long runway.

"5Z" wrote in message
oups.com...

Ray Hart wrote:

landing, just in case. I wouldn't recommend practising
no-brake landings
though.

This is another thread, but a no spoiler approach is one of the
simplest "advanced" manouvers out there. I only have access to a L-23
and tried this a few months back. I was able to use about as much
runway as the typical normal landing made by others. Spot touchdown
was a bit dicey, but I always got stopped where I had planned.

On 23 Sep 2005 16:55:00 GMT, Z Goudie
wrote:


Does no-one teach side slipping as an approach control
these days?

One does - but in a glider with halfways good L/D (and that's a lot
better than a Blanik) the tricky part starts close to the ground when
the glider starts to glide again once the sideslip has been ended.



Bye
Andreas

"Andreas Maurer" wrote in message
news
On 23 Sep 2005 16:55:00 GMT, Z Goudie
wrote:


Does no-one teach side slipping as an approach control
these days?

One does - but in a glider with halfways good L/D (and that's a lot
better than a Blanik) the tricky part starts close to the ground when
the glider starts to glide again once the sideslip has been ended.



Bye
Andreas


Agreed - tricky indeed.

The "slip to landing" no-spoiler approach is an artifact of training in
2-33-like trainers. It is far less useful in higher performance gliders
which is what we should be training our students to fly. We need to revise
our syllabi to prepare pilots for what they will fly in the 21st century.

As a somewhat extreme example, a slip to landing in my Nimbus would be
insane. I would have to level the wings at a height that would result in
floating the length of the runway and crashing somewhere off the departure
end. Or, alternatively. fly the approach at a dangerously low airspeed.

Training slips to landings in higher performance trainers can result in the
training risks being higher than any hoped for post training risk reduction.
Perhaps a better method is to teach very careful pre-flight inspection with
emphasis on positive control checks and then teach very accurate patterns
and glide path control.

Bill Daniels

Bill Daniels

Heh.

Yawing, or more accurately, slipping helps a bit in a no spoiler
landing. I practiced them a lot for my commercial checkride in a 20
meter DG-1000. It floats *a lot*. But slipping near the ground helps.
You just need to adjust the degree of the slip to match your
distance from the ground. The closer you get the less you slip. That
way, if you accidentally touch down it's with a very minor side load.

We did it many times on the 6,000 foot runway until I could do it
reliably. Then my instructor asked me to do it on the 3,000 foot
runway. I thought he was on crack, but you know what? It worked. I
used most of the runway, but I was able to get it down and stopped in
less than 3,000 feet.

As a result, I'm far more confident in my ability to get the glider down
and landed if the spoilers were to fail in the locked position.

Jeremy

Roger Worden wrote:
I tried it a few times in an L-13 in response to an inspector's
interpretation of the PTS. It floated a *long* way. Maybe yawing while in
ground effect could have added drag to help make the landing more precise,
but I didn't try it... we just decided you need a very long runway.

"5Z" wrote in message
oups.com...

Ray Hart wrote:


landing, just in case. I wouldn't recommend practising
no-brake landings
though.

This is another thread, but a no spoiler approach is one of the
simplest "advanced" manouvers out there. I only have access to a L-23
and tried this a few months back. I was able to use about as much
runway as the typical normal landing made by others. Spot touchdown
was a bit dicey, but I always got stopped where I had planned.

for my commercial checkride
asked me to do it on the 3,000 foot runway

My FAA inspector for Private wanted me to do a no-spoiler landing all the
way to the ground in a Blanik L13 into our 800-foot landing box. So I
delayed my practical test to try to gain this skill. None of my CFI's
thought the task should be done that way. I tried it with my CFIG and on my
own and we concluded that due to the 28:1 float we would have to round out
so far ahead of the field that it would be unsafe.

I found an FAA inspector newsletter that clarified the intent of the task:
to simulate an emergency approach with failed spoilers, but only to the
round-out. NO intent to complete the landing that way for the PPG rating.
It's OK to use spoilers after the round-out. Fortunately that inspector
retired and the next one accepted my research. During my practical test, I
slipped on base, on turn to final, and on final, then used spoilers after
round-out and landed perfectly within the box.

If I had to do without spoilers in real life, I'd just have to know it's not
coming down in 800'. More like 1500'. Yaw without ailerons would probably
help, but I have not tried it.

Thought provoking. The bit of my posting that has
been picked up on is
the 'I wouldn't recommend practising no-spoiler landings'.
I think that
my premise is sound for the following reasons.

1. We don't always get to land on 6,000', or even
3,000' airfields. We
sometimes get to land out in the best field available,
and that may be
very small.

2. Work out how low you'd have to be to touchdown
on the threshold in
a 50:1, or more, glider. There would be far more 'practise'
accidents
than than this kind of 'training' would prevent in
real life.

3. The end result of a really good no-brake approach
in a high
performance glider would likely be an overshoot accident
(normally far
less damaging than an undershoot through the trees
at flying speed).
Still not worth training for (ask an insurance broker).


4. Anybody know anyone who has had to land with both
brakes shut - in
a glider with more performance than a tin brick? I'd
be interested to
hear their stories.

Ray

At 03:24 26 September 2005, Roger Worden wrote:
for my commercial checkride
asked me to do it on the 3,000 foot runway

My FAA inspector for Private wanted me to do a no-spoiler
landing all
the
way to the ground in a Blanik L13 into our 800-foot
landing box. So I
delayed my practical test to try to gain this skill.
None of my CFI's
thought the task should be done that way. I tried it
with my CFIG and
on my
own and we concluded that due to the 28:1 float we
would have to
round out
so far ahead of the field that it would be unsafe.

I found an FAA inspector newsletter that clarified
the intent of the task:
to simulate an emergency approach with failed spoilers,
but only to the
round-out. NO intent to complete the landing that way
for the PPG
rating.
It's OK to use spoilers after the round-out. Fortunately
that inspector
retired and the next one accepted my research. During
my practical
test, I
slipped on base, on turn to final, and on final, then
used spoilers after
round-out and landed perfectly within the box.

If I had to do without spoilers in real life, I'd just
have to know it's not
coming down in 800'. More like 1500'. Yaw without ailerons
would
probably
help, but I have not tried it.

4. Anybody know anyone who has had to land with both
brakes shut - in
a glider with more performance than a tin brick? I'd
be interested to
hear their stories.

Ray

November 1975, Aboyne, Kestrel 19. Tried to open the
brakes to descend from ~ 20,000 feet as cloud was closing
in below. Brakes wouldn't open (cold had caused over
centre lock to become unbreakably tight). Lowered flap
and undercarraige and spiraled down. Entered cloud
at 5,000 feet, got spat out the bottom at 2,000 about
30 seconds later (had been in the down of the wave),
about ten miles from Aboyne. Brakes still wouldn't
open. Did a side-slip approach into a field about
200 yards square, approached on a corner to corner
line (about 300 yards available), surface wind was
about 20 - 25 knots. Wheeled it on, still no brakes
and the wheel brake is on the end of the airbrake travel,
tried the tailchute in the flare, that didn't work
either. Put the stick forward and ground looped just
before the far corner. Opened my eyes again, expecting
to see the back end of the glider lying on the ground
in front of me. Turned out there was no damage. You
can get away with it, but I wouldn't want to try it
with no wind. Exciting way to get a Diamond Height.

I don't think I would want to own an ASW 12.