This is why we train (kind of long)

I guessed what happened the moment I read that you had flown through the
localizer. This is becoming a real problem and I am beginning to think that
there is a fundamental design flaw in advanced avionics systems.

I have noticed a tendency for people to forget to switch on the CDI even
when they are very familiar with the GPS. I have done it myself, seen many
students make the same mistake, and heard from a lot of other pilots that
this is a problem. People are more likely to forget things like this when
they are already stressed. I think this should be emphasized when training
with advanced aircraft systems. Perhaps the task should be automated -- dial
in a localizer or ILS, and the CDI automatically switches to NAV. However, I
can envision problems with this approach as well, so to speak. :-)

"Dennis O'Connor" wrote in message
...
| Ya did good when the brown stuff hit the fan , Scott... One attaboy...
|
| Now, let's discuss your fuel... You never, never, never, N E V E R, go
below
| one hour of fuel in the tanks - period...

Easier said than done. When IMC, getting unexpected vectors and maybe a
hold, you cannot simply cancel and land at the nearest VFR airport for fuel.
Stuff happens -- you miss your approach, etc.

I have no objection to landing 20 minutes short of the destination simply to
top off your tanks, but that is not always an option.

Also, try getting a seaplane rating some time.

"C J Campbell" writes:

with advanced aircraft systems. Perhaps the task should be automated -- dial
in a localizer or ILS, and the CDI automatically switches to NAV. However, I
can envision problems with this approach as well, so to speak. :-)

The Garmin units do this if you select an ILS approach (which puts the
localizer frequency into the standby) and remember to flip the
frequency to active. You get GPS guidance through the procedure until
you're inbound and intercepting the final approach course.

Of course, then you have to remember to put it back into GPS mode if
you want missed approach guidance.

I believe this is configurable.

C J Campbell ) wrote:

I have noticed a tendency for people to forget to switch on the CDI even
when they are very familiar with the GPS. I have done it myself, seen many
students make the same mistake, and heard from a lot of other pilots that
this is a problem. People are more likely to forget things like this when
they are already stressed. I think this should be emphasized when training
with advanced aircraft systems. Perhaps the task should be automated -- dial
in a localizer or ILS, and the CDI automatically switches to NAV. However, I
can envision problems with this approach as well, so to speak. :-)

The GPS could flash a message reminding the pilot to switch the CDI when
within 5 miles or so of the localizer, much like some do to remind the
pilot to go to OBS mode when outbound to a procedure turn.

Of course, I suppose the message might be overlooked by the pilot...

--
Peter












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C J Campbell ) wrote:

Easier said than done. When IMC, getting unexpected vectors and maybe a
hold, you cannot simply cancel and land at the nearest VFR airport for fuel.
Stuff happens -- you miss your approach, etc.

I was taught to use the phrase "minimum fuel" if it appeared that holds
and/or additional vectors might make me concerned about remaining fuel,
whether it be a set "bingo" reserve or some other amount.

Wouldn't this be preferable to simply accepting the vectors and holds?

--
Peter












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I have watched folks under the hood screw the pooch (figuratively) by
not being familiar with equipment and avionics.

I have to wonder.. how did you blow through your required fuel reserves
for IFR with only "one" missed/messed up approach? Were you stretching
it, not plan for winds or were your fuel numbers wrong some other way?

Glad you lived to talk about it.

Dave

SD wrote:
Well, tonight will go in my book as something that I will never
forget. Tonight I learned a valuable lesson and was able to live to
tell about it. As a lurker here for many years, I have come to enjoy
reading about people's experiences and try to learn from their
mistakes. So tonight I am posting my experience in hopes that someone
else can learn from me.

Today started out as just any ordinary day with a cross county flight
that was going to take about 4 hours there, drop someone off and then
come back home. I was in a Seneca II turbo and the weather was
looking mostly VFR with the occasional MVFR called for my route, but
was clearing. My flight to my destination was uneventful. It was the
return flight and about 9 minutes out from my final destination when
things went wrong.

It was around 2200 and I was on with center with flight following and
I turned to the ATIS to get weather for my destination. They were
advising of Snow and ceilings at 2500. But how could that be, this
stuff was not forcasted, I'm about 30miles out, flying at around 4500
agl and I have the city in site, but not the airport. I asked center
if my destination was IFR and they advised that they were not. The
center then handed me off to approach. I proceed to descend in
anticipation of lower clouds then BAM, the city went away. I was not
IMC at the moment but I could not see anything in front of me.

I thought to myself, no big deal, I will call for local IFR and shoot
the ILS in. I have shot this approach many times.... Well at least in
an aircraft with 2 nav radios and a GS. I have about 50ish hours in
this Seneca (mostly x-county time) and we had just gotten the MX20 and
CNX80 system put in about 3 weeks ago. I really haven't gotten use to
shooting approaches with this system yet but here we go. Approach
gave me vectors and altitude changes. Now I'm in IMC. There's a
little vertigo coming into play now (don't know what that was all
about) so on came the autopilot and let my head clear. Now I'm flying
straight and level and on course. I knew I had about 15 or so miles
to go before they would start turning me in to the ILS so now I'm
pulling up the approach plate on the mx20. I have the paper one in my
lap but I was going to use every tool to my advantage. It pulled up,
now I can see exactly where I am on the approach. Now for the final
vectors, I've got the ILS tuned into the nav portion on the CNX80, I'm
getting what appears to be the proper reading on the HSI. But the ILS
needle isn't moving. Next I hear from approach that I have blown thru
the localizer and that they were going to turn me back around for
resequencing. No big deal.

I looked at my configuration on my systems to try and figure out why I
never got the localizer. The frequency was correct, I confirmed it
with approach and they advised it was working correctly. Then I saw
that I did not push the CDI button. I hit it and it came alive. Now
just as they are turning me back for final vectors, I look down and
see that my right fuel gauge is showing 0 but my left is still around
20. I then intercepted the localizer and turned inbound. It was at
that time the right engine dies. I reached down and hit the cross
feed but nothing.

Now here I am, in IMC, flying a plane with avionics that I have very
little experience with, with my best friend (which this is the first
time he has ever flown with me) and now with one engine dead. With
all of this, you can say I got a little distracted and started getting
off course. I had already switched to tower freq by now, so I
declared priority due to fuel. The left was still showing almost 20
but we all know how fuel gauges are accurate. An American Airlines
had just landed in front of me and he advised that he broke out at
around 1500 agl and that it was +10 vis underneath. I was able to get
back on the ILS and intercept the GS. I then started my decent
leaving my gear and flaps up (I had plenty of power on one engine to
maintain blue line, but did not want to take a chance) Just as I was
about to secure the right engine, it started rumbling to life. I
don't know if it was the descent that shifted the fuel or fuel was
finally making it thru the cross feed, I was about 1500 agl and broke
thru the clouds. There was the runway. The most beautiful site I have
ever seen. Flaps came out; Gear came down, and I landed. I was
drenched with sweat and it was 12 degrees and snowing but I didn't
care. I opened my little window and let that cold air in... It felt
good. I was alive.

Now it has been about 3 hours since I landed and I can not sleep a
wink. I keep thinking to myself how foolish I was believing that I
could go IMC using equipment that I was not all that familiar with.
Another thing that I can kick myself in the butt for was to not paying
more attention to my fuel situation. There are low fuel lights on the
annunciator panel but they never came on. The bulbs work fine, I did
test them.

But without the proper training, I might have allowed all these things
to just come to a boil. There were some moments of panic ( especially
when that right fan quit) but I was able to use the basic training of
dealing with engine outs and flying on a single engine that I was able
to regain my composer and continue to fly the ILS on one engine.
Without having that, they would probably be looking for the wreckage
now.

Thanks for reading my long winded story but this was kind of therapy
for me. I think that I can now go and get some sleep.


Scott

"Dave Katz" wrote in message
...
| "C J Campbell" writes:
|
| with advanced aircraft systems. Perhaps the task should be automated --
dial
| in a localizer or ILS, and the CDI automatically switches to NAV.
However, I
| can envision problems with this approach as well, so to speak. :-)
|
| The Garmin units do this if you select an ILS approach (which puts the
| localizer frequency into the standby) and remember to flip the
| frequency to active. You get GPS guidance through the procedure until
| you're inbound and intercepting the final approach course.
|
| Of course, then you have to remember to put it back into GPS mode if
| you want missed approach guidance.
|
| I believe this is configurable.

Yeah, my GARMIN GNS 430 would do that. Instead of an external NAV/GPS switch
such as you see in most GPS installations, the GARMIN units have the switch
built into the panel. GARMIN can do this because their units are all-in-one
boxes, so it is a simple matter to switch program that in. Even though the
CNX-80 the OP used is also an all-in-one box, it appears that it must be
switched manually.

I have not yet seen a GARMIN 1000 installation, but I understand that it
works more like the GNS-430/-530 units.

"Peter R." wrote in message
...
| C J Campbell ) wrote:
|
| I have noticed a tendency for people to forget to switch on the CDI even
| when they are very familiar with the GPS. I have done it myself, seen
many
| students make the same mistake, and heard from a lot of other pilots
that
| this is a problem. People are more likely to forget things like this
when
| they are already stressed. I think this should be emphasized when
training
| with advanced aircraft systems. Perhaps the task should be automated --
dial
| in a localizer or ILS, and the CDI automatically switches to NAV.
However, I
| can envision problems with this approach as well, so to speak. :-)
|
| The GPS could flash a message reminding the pilot to switch the CDI when
| within 5 miles or so of the localizer, much like some do to remind the
| pilot to go to OBS mode when outbound to a procedure turn.
|
| Of course, I suppose the message might be overlooked by the pilot...
|

Most of them flash the message when you select the approach procedure, which
IMHO is too early.

"Peter R." wrote in message
...
| C J Campbell ) wrote:
|
| Easier said than done. When IMC, getting unexpected vectors and maybe a
| hold, you cannot simply cancel and land at the nearest VFR airport for
fuel.
| Stuff happens -- you miss your approach, etc.
|
| I was taught to use the phrase "minimum fuel" if it appeared that holds
| and/or additional vectors might make me concerned about remaining fuel,
| whether it be a set "bingo" reserve or some other amount.
|
| Wouldn't this be preferable to simply accepting the vectors and holds?
|

Even that is no guarantee that you will get priority handling. Other
aircraft emergencies, going missed and trying again, etc., will start to eat
into your fuel reserve. Turbulence can have unexpected consequences, too,
slowing your rate of progress and eating fuel as you change altitudes
looking for better conditions.

Some very popular aircraft, including twins, only hold about 1.5 hours
useable fuel when fully loaded with pax and bags. The Cessna 414 Chancellor
comes to mind. According to Aviation Consumer, that aircraft has the best
safety record (per 100,000 hours) of all piston twins, they are not exactly
falling out of the sky because of fuel exhaustion. It follows that if you
think the 414 is not safe enough because it does not hold enough fuel, then
all other piston twins are not safe enough for you, either, because their
accident rate is worse than that of the 414. Unless, of course, fuel is the
only safety issue that you are concerned about, in which case I wish you
well, but I will not fly with you.

One could avoid piston twins and float planes entirely. Some people do. But
then you have to ask yourself why you are avoiding those aircraft and not
those piston singles that have worse safety records than the 414. There are
plenty of those, including such stalwarts as the Navion, Mooney, and
Ercoupe. The only piston singles that have better safety records than the
414 are basically a handful of Cessnas and Pipers.

SD sdatverizondot.net@ wrote in message . ..
Well, tonight will go in my book as something that I will never
forget. Tonight I learned a valuable lesson and was able to live to
tell about it. As a lurker here for many years, I have come to enjoy
reading about people's experiences and try to learn from their
mistakes. So tonight I am posting my experience in hopes that someone
else can learn from me.

Thanks, a good reminder that even though the plane is IFR equipped,
the pilot may not be ready to use those instruments. I guess there's
something to be said for the simplistic KX-155

snip

I looked at my configuration on my systems to try and figure out why I
never got the localizer. The frequency was correct, I confirmed it
with approach and they advised it was working correctly. Then I saw
that I did not push the CDI button. I hit it and it came alive. Now
just as they are turning me back for final vectors, I look down and
see that my right fuel gauge is showing 0 but my left is still around
20.

Congrats on a safe landing when things weren't going well.

Did you find out why the left tank had 20Gal, but the right tank was
empty? I would assume they were originally filled to the same level
and that the engines were feeding from their respective tanks per
standard Seneca II ops (ie not crossfeeding).

I am curious - do you have the 93 or 123 gallon tanks?

-Nathan