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#21
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"Matt" wrote in message ...
Just the standard 'blah blah America superior to the rest of the world in absolutely every respect blah blah" Al post. The Rafale is a nice aircraft, and excellent value when you take it's weapon systems - MICA, SCALP-EG, etc - into account. The Republic of Korea's Air Force wanted the Rafale with uprated engines, but since the US offered the F-15K with economic offsets that actually outweigh the price of the contract (i..e. they essentially payed the Koreans to take it), they went for that instead. Suprise! The F-15K is a very nice aircraft, but the base airframe is getting on in years. Matt "robert arndt" wrote in message m... Alan Minyard wrote in message . .. On 2 Nov 2003 02:39:53 -0800, (robert arndt) wrote: (Tom R. Rastell) wrote in message . com... because the French are frogs and frogs can´t fly! Oh really? Then please explain why Americans were flying French a/c in WW1. Ever heard of the Lafayette Escadrille? Nieuport or Spad ring any bells? Moron. Rob Let's see, 85 years ago some US pilots flew French aircraft, so current French aircraft must be wonderful. Really strange logic at work there. Current French aircraft, while not exactly "crap", are not state of the art and are clearly inferior to their US counterparts. Al Minyard Funny how the French had the Dewoitine D.520 and M.S.406 during the first year of the war and how good they were. The M.S.406 while inferior to the Me-109E still racked up 175 kills from 1939-40. The D.520 OTOH was the best French fighter up until the surrender and was certainly equal to the Spitfire and Me-109 of the time. After WW2, the French sold many of their aircraft to the Israelis who racked up more kills and got a lot of mileage out of the aircraft against the Arabs: Ouragan, Mystere, Super Mystere, Vautour, and Mirage. Currently the French have the Mirage 2000 and Rafale, both very capable aircraft. You just don't like anything foreign Al. Rob while touring France i got to see a variety of different French combat aircraft. some of the older ones were the Ouragan and Vautour. i saw an Ouragan on display at the Abbeville Airfield. that aircraft is always overlooked. it served with the French and Israeli air forces as well as Indian Navy (as Toofani). in Israeli service it attacked the Egyptian 1st Armored Division in Sinai and disabled the Egyptian destroyer Ibrahim el Awal which was captured by the Israeli Navy. in the 1980s Israel supplied El Salvador with 18 Ouragans for operations against leftist guerillas. i also saw a S.O.4050 Vautour at the Aerienne base at Reims on display outside. the Vautour also served with the Israeli air force as a bomber and ECM aircraft. the Vautour served in the Six Day war and destroyed 309 aircraft on the ground including Tu-16 bombers. they also harassed arab tank formations. while not a fan of French aircraft i can still appreciate the successful aircraft they built. it will be interesting to see if the new Rafale will see combat in the future. Jason if you've never been to France before you gotta go. despite the anti-French stuff going around, a lot of Americans still travel there. Paris is wonderful and the people are not as arrogant as we make them out to be. if anything Americans are the really rude people when they tour Europe. we don't take time to really plan a tour efficiently, bring the right essentials, prepare for emergency situations, or bother to learn the language of the countries we visit. its not the fault of the French for loathing loud, arrogant Americans who think they can do anything they want anywhere in the world. |
#23
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On 2 Nov 2003 19:13:22 -0800, (robert arndt) wrote:
Alan Minyard wrote in message . .. On 2 Nov 2003 02:39:53 -0800, (robert arndt) wrote: (Tom R. Rastell) wrote in message . com... because the French are frogs and frogs can´t fly! Oh really? Then please explain why Americans were flying French a/c in WW1. Ever heard of the Lafayette Escadrille? Nieuport or Spad ring any bells? Moron. Rob Let's see, 85 years ago some US pilots flew French aircraft, so current French aircraft must be wonderful. Really strange logic at work there. Current French aircraft, while not exactly "crap", are not state of the art and are clearly inferior to their US counterparts. Al Minyard Funny how the French had the Dewoitine D.520 and M.S.406 during the first year of the war and how good they were. The M.S.406 while inferior to the Me-109E still racked up 175 kills from 1939-40. The D.520 OTOH was the best French fighter up until the surrender and was certainly equal to the Spitfire and Me-109 of the time. After WW2, the French sold many of their aircraft to the Israelis who racked up more kills and got a lot of mileage out of the aircraft against the Arabs: Ouragan, Mystere, Super Mystere, Vautour, and Mirage. Currently the French have the Mirage 2000 and Rafale, both very capable aircraft. You just don't like anything foreign Al. Rob Not when they are clearly inferior. The F-15, F-16, F-14. F-35 and F-22 are all clearly superior to anything ever produced in France. And quoting unverified numbers from a war that France lost in record time does little to bolster your case. Look at the export sales of the Rafale compared to the export sales of the F-35. Al Minyard |
#24
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On Mon, 3 Nov 2003 04:04:47 -0000, "Matt" wrote:
Just the standard 'blah blah America superior to the rest of the world in absolutely every respect blah blah" Al post. The Rafale is a nice aircraft, and excellent value when you take it's weapon systems - MICA, SCALP-EG, etc - into account. The Republic of Korea's Air Force wanted the Rafale with uprated engines, but since the US offered the F-15K with economic offsets that actually outweigh the price of the contract (i..e. they essentially payed the Koreans to take it), they went for that instead. Suprise! The F-15K is a very nice aircraft, but the base airframe is getting on in years. Matt The Rafale has ZERO export sales, despite offsets equal to any offered by the US. The F-35 has thousands. Do try to keep up. Al Minyard |
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Alan Minyard wrote in
: On 2 Nov 2003 19:13:22 -0800, (robert arndt) wrote: Funny how the French had the Dewoitine D.520 and M.S.406 during the first year of the war and how good they were. The M.S.406 while inferior to the Me-109E still racked up 175 kills from 1939-40. The D.520 OTOH was the best French fighter up until the surrender and was certainly equal to the Spitfire and Me-109 of the time. After WW2, the French sold many of their aircraft to the Israelis who racked up more kills and got a lot of mileage out of the aircraft against the Arabs: Ouragan, Mystere, Super Mystere, Vautour, and Mirage. Currently the French have the Mirage 2000 and Rafale, both very capable aircraft. You just don't like anything foreign Al. Rob Not when they are clearly inferior. The F-15, F-16, F-14. F-35 and F-22 are all clearly superior to anything ever produced in France. I'd agree on the two latter, but on the paper I'd say the Rafael easily matches those three for it's intended roles. And it does that years ahead of both the F22 and F35. We could just JOUST it for an interesting perspective: http://www.eurofighter.starstreak.ne...hter/tech.html Look at the export sales of the Rafale compared to the export sales of the F-35. What export sales? Regards... |
#26
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Alan Minyard wrote in
: On Mon, 3 Nov 2003 04:04:47 -0000, "Matt" wrote: Just the standard 'blah blah America superior to the rest of the world in absolutely every respect blah blah" Al post. The Rafale is a nice aircraft, and excellent value when you take it's weapon systems - MICA, SCALP-EG, etc - into account. The Republic of Korea's Air Force wanted the Rafale with uprated engines, but since the US offered the F-15K with economic offsets that actually outweigh the price of the contract (i..e. they essentially payed the Koreans to take it), they went for that instead. Suprise! The F-15K is a very nice aircraft, but the base airframe is getting on in years. Matt The Rafale has ZERO export sales, despite offsets equal to any offered by the US. The F-35 has thousands. Do try to keep up. I don't understand your POV. The F35 is 5 years, if all goes well, from even entering service with the US -- the Rafale has already been in service for two years. Regards... |
#27
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Rafale is a fine plane. Regardless of what I think about French policies,
their aircraft are not bad at all. At least they have finally perfected the F-102 (grin) Ron Pilot/Wildland Firefighter |
#28
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At least they have finally perfected the
F-102 (grin) Ron Pilot/Wildland Firefighter Which goes all the way back to the Lippisch DM-1/P13a aircraft of 1945. I guess all that rushed testing at Langley paid off. Another stolen German/French idea*. Rob * Payen Flechair delta was captured by the Germans in 1940. Although it didn't influence Lippisch's design, Payen deserves credit for the delta wing. His designs were to deltas what the Hortens were to flying wings. |
#29
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#30
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"Alan Minyard" wrote in message
... On Mon, 3 Nov 2003 04:04:47 -0000, "Matt" wrote: Just the standard 'blah blah America superior to the rest of the world in absolutely every respect blah blah" Al post. The Rafale is a nice aircraft, and excellent value when you take it's weapon systems - MICA, SCALP-EG, etc - into account. The Republic of Korea's Air Force wanted the Rafale with uprated engines, but since the US offered the F-15K with economic offsets that actually outweigh the price of the contract (i..e. they essentially payed the Koreans to take it), they went for that instead. Suprise! The F-15K is a very nice aircraft, but the base airframe is getting on in years. Matt The Rafale has ZERO export sales, despite offsets equal to any offered by the US. The F-35 has thousands. Do try to keep up. Al Minyard Nice to see you completely failed to do any research whatsoever before opening your ass, I mean, mouth. The Rafale deal offered to South Korea was essentially a licensed production deal, with Dassault offering to transfer an entire Rafale production line to Seoul. France would build the first few aircraft, and then provide a few limited components once the line was established. In the end, it worked out to around a $4bn offset. The US/Boeing offer was a transferred-tech deal that directly shook out to about $3.2bn once the US government gave Boeing a $250m subsidy to reduce the overall price, but was closer to $6bn in linked defence and economic loans. The bottom line from the US was "If you don't buy our fighter, we're not going to give you these loans. Oh, and we're currently reviewing your most-favoured-nation trade status. No pressure!" The F-35 has zero - nil - export sales. A number of foreign governments, including the UK, are contributing financially to the development process as partners... but no-one has actually bought the aircraft yet, including the US. All the 'partner nations' get for their money is technological information and, in the case of the UK, component production contracts. After all, Bush might still cancel it to pay for his adventure in Iraq. Do try to keep up! Matt |
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