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#21
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Kevin Brooks wrote:
"Guy Alcala" wrote in message . .. Buzzer wrote: On 18 Mar 2004 22:19:52 GMT, (BUFDRVR) wrote: I don't believe the B-52's were typically down in the weeds during the sixties, when the force still included a lot of C, D, and F models--they were still doing a lot of higher altitude work. Like in Vietnam. The terrain avoidance radar was not installed until early 1970's (1973??). This is not to say you couldn't fly low visually, but I don't believe low level was a common practice until the 70s. Bomb-nav maintainer might disagree with you about when the TA was installed. (This is just the earliest date I could find..) http://www.bombnav.org/guestbook.html "Did infinite T/A alignment long first then 24hrs short method Dec 1962 Carswell AFB TX." http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/bomber/b-52_hist.htm "Although the new low level requirement would apply to the other SAC bombers, it would have its greatest impact upon the B-52. To fly the new attack profile, the B-52C through H models were modified with a new terrain avoidance radar, an improved radar altimeter, increased cooling capacity for sustained low altitude operations, modified equipment mounts, and a general strengthening of the aircraft's secondary structures. The goal was to permit reliable, all-weather operation at 500 feet, to avoid detection, and to minimize encounters with enemy defenses. Low level training for SAC bomber crews began in the late 1950's, with actual aircraft modification beginning in 1961." What the man said. BUFDRVR, pull out your copy of Boyne and look up "Advanced Capability Radar" in the index. Boyne says the Hs got them first, but they were backfit to the D, F and G. Actually, Guy, the man said the C models also got it. Boyne doesn't, which was the source I used. He may have missed or forgotten them, or FAS may be wrong. FAS as a source is not infallible, though in this case it remains unclear a sto which models got it and when they actually got it. If the aircraft did start getting T/A radars in 1961, it would have taken some time to outfit the remainder of the fleet, which IIRC was pretty darned big at that time. Given SAC's priority at the time, I doubt it would take all that long, as our ICBM force was still mostly Atlas and Titan, and Polaris was just entering service. Your list also does not include the E models, which continued in service until the '69-70 timeframe. And it should. Brain fart. Another interesting item is the fact that throughout the sixties a large number of B-52's retained the silver upper/anti-flash white lower finishes, which was hardly a very good scheme for a low altitude penetrator. This all leads me to suspect that the "everything went to low level at the beginning of the sixties" bit may be another case similar to the old "all the B-29's stripped their armament per LeMay's orders" story--only partly correct, in other words. The low level seems to have started even earlier, perhaps by 1959 which is when the first BUFF crashed due to structural failure (horizontal stab) while in low altitude flight. The ACR allowed them to go somewhat lower in worse conditions in relative safety. Boyne shows the D (presumably with ACR) capable of going down to 500 feet, the G/H (presumably with EVS) able to go down to 300 ft. As an aside, RAF Vulcans went over to low-level from mid-63 on, according to the only source I have handy, Robert Jackson's "V-Bombers," but didn't get their TA (book says TF, but I'm sceptical) radars until a couple of years later (trials in 1966, so after that). There were certainly RAF a/c which received the low-altitude camo before they got the TA radar (I'm looking at pictures of two). As to repainting the SAC BUFFs, I wonder how critical it was considered, given their (presumed) night/bad-weather mission and the availability of Hound Dog (which doesn't seem to have been camo'ed). I suspect repainting was done when the next scheduled depot overhaul came around, while the radar could be added at the base itself or during a short depot visit. Painting a BUFF strikes me as a bit more of an endeavor than painting a fighter, and those usually had to go through IRAN to get re-painted. I think the Big Belly Ds used in SEA were the first to get black undersides, with the SIOP dedicated a/c retaining white undersides but acquiring camo tops. Now you've got me curious as to when the first camo BUFF appeared. Bob, any idea when you first saw/worked on one? Guy |
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On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 06:17:08 GMT, Guy Alcala
wrote: Actually, Guy, the man said the C models also got it. Boyne doesn't, which was the source I used. He may have missed or forgotten them, or FAS may be wrong. I would think they were not moding the Cs since some were already in the boneyard. I base that on Glasgow getting one in from the boneyard around 64/65 for training flights only. FAS as a source is not infallible, though in this case it remains unclear a sto which models got it and when they actually got it. If the aircraft did start getting T/A radars in 1961, it would have taken some time to outfit the remainder of the fleet, which IIRC was pretty darned big at that time. Given SAC's priority at the time, I doubt it would take all that long, as our ICBM force was still mostly Atlas and Titan, and Polaris was just entering service. Your list also does not include the E models, which continued in service until the '69-70 timeframe. And it should. Brain fart. E came out of the factory with TA according to one source on the internet.. Another interesting item is the fact that throughout the sixties a large number of B-52's retained the silver upper/anti-flash white lower finishes, which was hardly a very good scheme for a low altitude penetrator. This all leads me to suspect that the "everything went to low level at the beginning of the sixties" bit may be another case similar to the old "all the B-29's stripped their armament per LeMay's orders" story--only partly correct, in other words. The low level seems to have started even earlier, perhaps by 1959 which is when the first BUFF crashed due to structural failure (horizontal stab) while in low altitude flight. The ACR allowed them to go somewhat lower in worse conditions in relative safety. Boyne shows the D (presumably with ACR) capable of going down to 500 feet, the G/H (presumably with EVS) able to go down to 300 ft. 500 ft. was mentioned at the crash site of the B-52D in NE Montana in 1965. There was a B-52D off in the distance that was going to fly the profile of the one that crashed (hopefully he was going to clear the hill though!). I missed out on the thing roaring overhead because they cancelled due to weather. As an aside, RAF Vulcans went over to low-level from mid-63 on, according to the only source I have handy, Robert Jackson's "V-Bombers," but didn't get their TA (book says TF, but I'm sceptical) radars until a couple of years later (trials in 1966, so after that). There were certainly RAF a/c which received the low-altitude camo before they got the TA radar (I'm looking at pictures of two). As to repainting the SAC BUFFs, I wonder how critical it was considered, given their (presumed) night/bad-weather mission and the availability of Hound Dog (which doesn't seem to have been camo'ed). No camo Dogs or aircraft at Fairchild when we were TDY there from Glasgow in 1964? Glasgow never carried Dogs. Just BIG bombs until Big Belly. I suspect repainting was done when the next scheduled depot overhaul came around, while the radar could be added at the base itself or during a short depot visit. Painting a BUFF strikes me as a bit more of an endeavor than painting a fighter, and those usually had to go through IRAN to get re-painted. I think the Big Belly Ds used in SEA were the first to get black undersides, with the SIOP dedicated a/c retaining white undersides but acquiring camo tops. Now you've got me curious as to when the first camo BUFF appeared. Bob, any idea when you first saw/worked on one? Ds at Glasgow came out of Big Belly black. Probably first one around 1965. Wing deployed to SEA around Sep 1966 so they must have done the wing by then. I think the upper camo on the H was in place when I went back to SAC around 1976 at K.I. |
#23
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"Guy Alcala" wrote in message .. . Kevin Brooks wrote: "Guy Alcala" wrote in message . .. Buzzer wrote: On 18 Mar 2004 22:19:52 GMT, (BUFDRVR) wrote: I don't believe the B-52's were typically down in the weeds during the sixties, when the force still included a lot of C, D, and F models--they were still doing a lot of higher altitude work. Like in Vietnam. The terrain avoidance radar was not installed until early 1970's (1973??). This is not to say you couldn't fly low visually, but I don't believe low level was a common practice until the 70s. Bomb-nav maintainer might disagree with you about when the TA was installed. (This is just the earliest date I could find..) http://www.bombnav.org/guestbook.html "Did infinite T/A alignment long first then 24hrs short method Dec 1962 Carswell AFB TX." http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/bomber/b-52_hist.htm "Although the new low level requirement would apply to the other SAC bombers, it would have its greatest impact upon the B-52. To fly the new attack profile, the B-52C through H models were modified with a new terrain avoidance radar, an improved radar altimeter, increased cooling capacity for sustained low altitude operations, modified equipment mounts, and a general strengthening of the aircraft's secondary structures. The goal was to permit reliable, all-weather operation at 500 feet, to avoid detection, and to minimize encounters with enemy defenses. Low level training for SAC bomber crews began in the late 1950's, with actual aircraft modification beginning in 1961." What the man said. BUFDRVR, pull out your copy of Boyne and look up "Advanced Capability Radar" in the index. Boyne says the Hs got them first, but they were backfit to the D, F and G. Actually, Guy, the man said the C models also got it. Boyne doesn't, which was the source I used. He may have missed or forgotten them, or FAS may be wrong. My point is that the sources all seem to differ, so making any concrete assessment is a bit difficult as yet. From what I gather the C models were still flying operationally (versus the training birds) as late as the mid-sixties; their ability to perform down in the weeds has not been conclusively established. FAS as a source is not infallible, though in this case it remains unclear a sto which models got it and when they actually got it. If the aircraft did start getting T/A radars in 1961, it would have taken some time to outfit the remainder of the fleet, which IIRC was pretty darned big at that time. Given SAC's priority at the time, I doubt it would take all that long, as our ICBM force was still mostly Atlas and Titan, and Polaris was just entering service. In 1961 there were some 571 B-52's in service ( http://www.nrdc.org/nuclear/nudb/datab7.asp ), and by the following year that had climbed to some 673; I doubt that any major program such as the addition of a TA radar was completed in a period of less than three or four years at best for a force of that size (just based upon the '61 size); doing it in two years would have required a modification rate of nearly one aircraft per day, sevven days a week, fifty-two weeks a year. Your list also does not include the E models, which continued in service until the '69-70 timeframe. And it should. Brain fart. Another interesting item is the fact that throughout the sixties a large number of B-52's retained the silver upper/anti-flash white lower finishes, which was hardly a very good scheme for a low altitude penetrator. This all leads me to suspect that the "everything went to low level at the beginning of the sixties" bit may be another case similar to the old "all the B-29's stripped their armament per LeMay's orders" story--only partly correct, in other words. The low level seems to have started even earlier, perhaps by 1959 which is when the first BUFF crashed due to structural failure (horizontal stab) while in low altitude flight. That is when a couple of sources indicate the *training* of B-52 crews in low level operations began; those same two sources indicate that the modification work to the aircraft did not start until 1961. A site i ran across had a story posted by a former BUFF crewmember from that era, and all he said was that they began to fly low-altitude work "in the early sixties"; unless he was in one of the last crews to make that transition, then it appears the high altitude work was still ongoing. There was also an airframe modification program initiated to strengthen the structure so that it could absorb the increasedfatigue loads of low altitude work--I have not seen any indication of when that effort was completed, either, or whether it ever addressed either the C or E models. The ACR allowed them to go somewhat lower in worse conditions in relative safety. Boyne shows the D (presumably with ACR) capable of going down to 500 feet, the G/H (presumably with EVS) able to go down to 300 ft. As an aside, RAF Vulcans went over to low-level from mid-63 on, according to the only source I have handy, Robert Jackson's "V-Bombers," but didn't get their TA (book says TF, but I'm sceptical) radars until a couple of years later (trials in 1966, so after that). There were certainly RAF a/c which received the low-altitude camo before they got the TA radar (I'm looking at pictures of two). As to repainting the SAC BUFFs, I wonder how critical it was considered, given their (presumed) night/bad-weather mission and the availability of Hound Dog (which doesn't seem to have been camo'ed). I never knew SAC was restricting its operations to night/adverse weather :-) .. I have seen some photos of camo'd Hound Dog's, presumably from their later years in service. I suspect repainting was done when the next scheduled depot overhaul came around, while the radar could be added at the base itself or during a short depot visit. Painting a BUFF strikes me as a bit more of an endeavor than painting a fighter, and those usually had to go through IRAN to get re-painted. I think the Big Belly Ds used in SEA were the first to get black undersides, with the SIOP dedicated a/c retaining white undersides but acquiring camo tops. Now you've got me curious as to when the first camo BUFF appeared. Bob, any idea when you first saw/worked on one? Don't know when the first ones appeared, but IIRC there were still silver birds in service until around 1970 or thereabouts--I doubt either the C's or E's ever got the camo treatment. Brooks Guy |
#24
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"Buzzer" wrote in message ... On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 06:17:08 GMT, Guy Alcala wrote: Actually, Guy, the man said the C models also got it. Boyne doesn't, which was the source I used. He may have missed or forgotten them, or FAS may be wrong. I would think they were not moding the Cs since some were already in the boneyard. I base that on Glasgow getting one in from the boneyard around 64/65 for training flights only. Baugher seems to indicate the C's continued in operational service until as late as 1966 with the 99th BW out of Westover in MA (http://home.att.net/~jbaugher2/b52_8.html ). IAPR (Spring 2003 issue) indicates that "some" C models ended up receiving the TA radar, but it is unclear as to when the last C gave up its SIOP mission. Baugher indicates that the development and fielding of the TA radar was apparently problematic, but goes into no detail on that subject. FAS as a source is not infallible, though in this case it remains unclear a sto which models got it and when they actually got it. If the aircraft did start getting T/A radars in 1961, it would have taken some time to outfit the remainder of the fleet, which IIRC was pretty darned big at that time. Given SAC's priority at the time, I doubt it would take all that long, as our ICBM force was still mostly Atlas and Titan, and Polaris was just entering service. Your list also does not include the E models, which continued in service until the '69-70 timeframe. And it should. Brain fart. E came out of the factory with TA according to one source on the internet.. Baugher indicates the E's had the improved Doppler radar for use in low level navigation, but not the terrain avoidance radar. It appears that different sources are (again) providing somewhat different pictures of what was included, with IAPR, in its Summer 2003 issue, including a list of low level nav aids that were included in the original production (and apparently were so unreliable the system had to be completely rebuilt, a task that took until 1964 to complete) which does not include the TA radar. But IAPR also says the E was the first model that was intended from the start to be a low level operator, so the TA may have been included and the sources just failed to mention it. Brooks Another interesting item is the fact that throughout the sixties a large number of B-52's retained the silver upper/anti-flash white lower finishes, which was hardly a very good scheme for a low altitude penetrator. This all leads me to suspect that the "everything went to low level at the beginning of the sixties" bit may be another case similar to the old "all the B-29's stripped their armament per LeMay's orders" story--only partly correct, in other words. The low level seems to have started even earlier, perhaps by 1959 which is when the first BUFF crashed due to structural failure (horizontal stab) while in low altitude flight. The ACR allowed them to go somewhat lower in worse conditions in relative safety. Boyne shows the D (presumably with ACR) capable of going down to 500 feet, the G/H (presumably with EVS) able to go down to 300 ft. 500 ft. was mentioned at the crash site of the B-52D in NE Montana in 1965. There was a B-52D off in the distance that was going to fly the profile of the one that crashed (hopefully he was going to clear the hill though!). I missed out on the thing roaring overhead because they cancelled due to weather. As an aside, RAF Vulcans went over to low-level from mid-63 on, according to the only source I have handy, Robert Jackson's "V-Bombers," but didn't get their TA (book says TF, but I'm sceptical) radars until a couple of years later (trials in 1966, so after that). There were certainly RAF a/c which received the low-altitude camo before they got the TA radar (I'm looking at pictures of two). As to repainting the SAC BUFFs, I wonder how critical it was considered, given their (presumed) night/bad-weather mission and the availability of Hound Dog (which doesn't seem to have been camo'ed). No camo Dogs or aircraft at Fairchild when we were TDY there from Glasgow in 1964? Glasgow never carried Dogs. Just BIG bombs until Big Belly. I suspect repainting was done when the next scheduled depot overhaul came around, while the radar could be added at the base itself or during a short depot visit. Painting a BUFF strikes me as a bit more of an endeavor than painting a fighter, and those usually had to go through IRAN to get re-painted. I think the Big Belly Ds used in SEA were the first to get black undersides, with the SIOP dedicated a/c retaining white undersides but acquiring camo tops. Now you've got me curious as to when the first camo BUFF appeared. Bob, any idea when you first saw/worked on one? Ds at Glasgow came out of Big Belly black. Probably first one around 1965. Wing deployed to SEA around Sep 1966 so they must have done the wing by then. I think the upper camo on the H was in place when I went back to SAC around 1976 at K.I. |
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On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:36:48 -0500, "Kevin Brooks"
wrote: Baugher seems to indicate the C's continued in operational service until as late as 1966 with the 99th BW out of Westover in MA (http://home.att.net/~jbaugher2/b52_8.html ). IAPR (Spring 2003 issue) indicates that "some" C models ended up receiving the TA radar, but it is unclear as to when the last C gave up its SIOP mission. Baugher indicates that the development and fielding of the TA radar was apparently problematic, but goes into no detail on that subject. Baugher indicates the E's had the improved Doppler radar for use in low level navigation, but not the terrain avoidance radar. It appears that different sources are (again) providing somewhat different pictures of what was included, with IAPR, in its Summer 2003 issue, including a list of low level nav aids that were included in the original production (and apparently were so unreliable the system had to be completely rebuilt, a task that took until 1964 to complete) which does not include the TA radar. But IAPR also says the E was the first model that was intended from the start to be a low level operator, so the TA may have been included and the sources just failed to mention it. Baugher had/has some problems with dates and such on B-52D ECM so there might be some problems with other systems. I think the page has been changed and the material deleted, but it went along something like a piece of ECM equipment on the D wasn't installed until 1967 when in fact I had worked on that piece of equipment in 1963 and it had been there long before I was there. Trying to keep track of just ECM mods on B-52s from the 60s onward would probably take a book a foot thick. As far as my post to Walt it is the old ECM - defence game. Something I never figured out how an EWO could get credit for getting the plane through the defences and the defense/interceptors could get credit for shooting the plane down, Walt mentioned the Forbes RB47Es. I worked on something of the equivalent EB-57s at Forbes, previously Holloman Det 1 4677th DSES, in the mid 70s. The main interceptor jammer was basically "dumbed down" for training. A toggle switch on the front of the transmitter safety wired in what you might say was the safe for training mode. I go back to the B-52H and here comes a new, fancy interceptor jammer called the ALQ-117. It has an EWO controlled switch for training and war. The EWOs complain that the training mode for our interceptors is worse than the system it replaced. Almost like it had been deliberately "dumbed down" for training purposes. As far as using the interceptor IR mode to track a B-52? About all I can say about that is first you have to know what part of the sky that big old plane is in. Might not be easy "IF" ECM gets to use everything they have available. The ten or so years I spent in SAC everything was never used. One time I thought it was a go, but when the planes got to the staging base for the excercise they went out and changed one thing back to training. Oh, well... |
#26
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On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:15:45 -0500, "Kevin Brooks"
wrote: In 1961 there were some 571 B-52's in service ( http://www.nrdc.org/nuclear/nudb/datab7.asp ), and by the following year that had climbed to some 673; I doubt that any major program such as the addition of a TA radar was completed in a period of less than three or four years at best for a force of that size (just based upon the '61 size); doing it in two years would have required a modification rate of nearly one aircraft per day, sevven days a week, fifty-two weeks a year. IF E forward came out with TA then the D is the only one that needed the mod, and maybe the C... There was also an airframe modification program initiated to strengthen the structure so that it could absorb the increasedfatigue loads of low altitude work--I have not seen any indication of when that effort was completed, either, or whether it ever addressed either the C or E models. Some of our D models at Glasgow 64 or so had the stress gauges on them for the study of the structure mod. Only reason I knew about them at the time was they were obvious on the inside skin in the tail section when we loaded chaff. I think the B-52 that crashed in 65 during low level had them because the Boeing engineers were "reading the tapes" from a recorder on the aircraft in our maintenance office. I always figured the recorder was the one that monitored the stress gauges and other aircraft data. Not positive but the structure mod was probably during Big Belly. Or not done at all on the Vietnam birds since they would only be flying high? In a maintenance debriefing once there was a discussion about the 2000 hr design life of the B-52D and our planes were at something like 1500/1600 hrs. I'm about 19 years old and a flunky two striper thinking what a waste of money designing an aircraft for only 2000 hrs. Click and the clock hits 2000 and off to the junkyard. And then along comes Vietnam... |
#27
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SEAD has gotten a lot better since Vietnam?
Without a doubt. Which has allowed non-stealth aircraft to hit targets covered by surface defenses. BUFDRVR "Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips everyone on Bear Creek" |
#28
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Low level training for SAC bomber crews began in
the late 1950's, with actual aircraft modification beginning in 1961." Wow....learn something new everyday. I could have picked up my B-52 book, but thought I knew the TA stuff off the top of my cranium. I sit corrected. BUFDRVR "Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips everyone on Bear Creek" |
#29
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I go back to the B-52H and here comes a new, fancy interceptor jammer
called the ALQ-117. It has an EWO controlled switch for training and war. The EWOs complain that the training mode for our interceptors is worse than the system it replaced. Almost like it had been deliberately "dumbed down" Current software on some BUFF ECM gear has that same "train/war" mode. When the training software is loaded, *some* "enemy" fighters simply get a "J-Code" on their radar telling them they're being jammed. Newer fighter radars don't even show the "J-Code", they simply see no ECM effect. I flew a NORAD exercise where they specified they wanted realistic ECM, we loaded the real stuff and were never engaged BVR. BUFDRVR "Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips everyone on Bear Creek" |
#30
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I flew a NORAD exercise where
they specified they wanted realistic ECM, we loaded the real stuff and were never engaged BVR. I had a B-52G crewmember tell me the same thing, about his time in Gs in the 80s. When they played the ewo tape, I believe it was called, F-15s had a very hard time engaging. Ron Tanker 65, C-54E (DC-4) |
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