Parachutes again

I was talking to the Strong Rep at the convention and his thought on
repacking was once a year would be fine-no problem at all.

Yes!!! I'm not the only freefall junkie with this opinion!

-eltuno/2NO

You better violate the FAA regs and fly with an expired parachute than
expiring from not flying with it...

Ramy



"nowhere" wrote in message
om...
The funny thing is that when the chute passes it's 120 day repack
limit you can also just leave it in the trailer when you go flying if
you don't want to violate FAA regs......Sort of like requiring a $50
inspection every four months for motorcycle helmets, if you wear one,
but leaving the wearing of them up to the individual rider.

Has anyone been ramp checked, been found with a chute that was say 120
to 240 days since last repack (not 5 years out of date...). If so, did
the FAA guy "write you up" and if so, what was the impact or penalty?

Now don't flame me thinking I'm planning on doing this, I take good care
of my rigs and I get them repacked at the start and at the midpoint of
the season, no point in wasting $50 for the winter... I'm just cuious
what the liability is if you got checked. There is not one of us out
flying gliders who would rationally decide on the 121st day that he or
she would be better off leaving their rig in the trailer.

Gary

chipsoars wrote:
There is an initiative, reported at the SSA BoD meeting in ONT to
extend the repack cycle to 180 days. Whether or not the chute is safe
is not so much the point as the FAA and the FAR's. THEY make the rules
and if in the course of a check you are not in compliance, you pay the
penalty.

Chip F

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 12:27:56 GMT, Gary Emerson
wrote:

Has anyone been ramp checked, been found with a chute that was say 120
to 240 days since last repack (not 5 years out of date...). If so, did
the FAA guy "write you up" and if so, what was the impact or penalty?

Now don't flame me thinking I'm planning on doing this, I take good care
of my rigs and I get them repacked at the start and at the midpoint of
the season, no point in wasting $50 for the winter... I'm just cuious
what the liability is if you got checked. There is not one of us out
flying gliders who would rationally decide on the 121st day that he or
she would be better off leaving their rig in the trailer.

Gary

chipsoars wrote:
There is an initiative, reported at the SSA BoD meeting in ONT to
extend the repack cycle to 180 days. Whether or not the chute is safe
is not so much the point as the FAA and the FAR's. THEY make the rules
and if in the course of a check you are not in compliance, you pay the
penalty.

Chip F

I have personal knowledge of a $1000 fine and a certificate action
against a pilot who flew with an out of date parachute. I also have
personal knowledge of a parachute opening just fine after not being
packed for 16 years. I was under it. Safe and legal are two
different things. I advocate both.

Bill Zaleski
FAA Master Rigger

that is exactly why they have the requirement.......what you're suggesting
is that it would be OK or better to violate the regulations and take a
chance on it being airworthy... than to comply and know it's
airworthy....that's why they don't simply "recommend" I&R......with this
thinking most parachutes would never be inspected.
tim

"Ramy Yanetz" wrote in message
...
You better violate the FAA regs and fly with an expired parachute than
expiring from not flying with it...

Ramy



"nowhere" wrote in message
om...
The funny thing is that when the chute passes it's 120 day repack
limit you can also just leave it in the trailer when you go flying if
you don't want to violate FAA regs......Sort of like requiring a $50
inspection every four months for motorcycle helmets, if you wear one,
but leaving the wearing of them up to the individual rider.

Yes Bill, I agree. I jumped just 2 years ago a main canopy which was
seating in the deployment bag for 4 years. I new I packed it, remove
the risers from the harness/container and had it in my packing room.
Then one day in the evening I was to lazy to pack my main so I grabbed
that old Raven II I packed over 4 years ago. No problem. It opened just
fine. But in the case of skydiving we all have a second parachute on
our backs. We are not questioning if the equipment will work or not.
The point here is that the regulations and the manufacturers
recommending repack and inspections every 120 days. And for other
people...it is not 4 months, it is 120 days. Now, whether the parachute
is good after 120 days or 180 days it doesn't matter. Unless the FAA,
all of the manufacturers and PIA will change the repack cycle to 180 or
360 days, or whatever the interval might be, right now it is 120 days.
And if the manufacturer is putting on their equipment a life span, well
that is it. End of story.
Now, I have seen in Oakland, CA pilot going to fly acro in his Super
Decathlon ramp checked. His parachute was out of date and the FAA
suspended his license for 60 days. I don't remember if there were any
monetary penalty as well or just the suspension. Similar situation I
witnessed at the non existing anymore glider port in Fremont, CA. But
the violator was an instructor so the penalty was much more severe.
Besides having his license suspended his instructional privilege was in
jeopardy. Since this was in like 1986 I don't remember the particulars,
maybe that person is posting to this group and could give us some
better explanation.
And now, like a rigger to rigger...would you pack for someone a 39
years old canopy? or 27 years old canopy? I would not. We riggers,
are not just a bunch of stuck-ups, we are just like the A&P's and the
AI's with the main difference that instead using aluminum, wood or
composite we are using fabric, webbing and line. The data shows that
the fabric is degrading while packed in the container at the rate of
about 3% a year. So, 3% x 20 years = 60% loss in strength. You now as
well as I do that you can grab the F-111 fabric, which most of the
emergency canopies are made out of, and you can pull as hard as you can
and it is O'K but move your grip a foot in any direction and you will
tore the fabric with a minimal force. Performance Designs asks that
after 40 repack cycles the canopy being returned to the factory for
evaluation. Why? Because it degrades!!! And the same is true for every
single canopy especially those older then 20 years.
So guys and gals.. you can argue as much as you want but the regs and
the industry would have to change dramatically. In the mean time it is
120 days or fly without a parachute.

On 25 Feb 2005 11:25:39 -0800, wrote:

Yes Bill, I agree. I jumped just 2 years ago a main canopy which was
seating in the deployment bag for 4 years. I new I packed it, remove
the risers from the harness/container and had it in my packing room.
Then one day in the evening I was to lazy to pack my main so I grabbed
that old Raven II I packed over 4 years ago. No problem. It opened just
fine. But in the case of skydiving we all have a second parachute on
our backs. We are not questioning if the equipment will work or not.
The point here is that the regulations and the manufacturers
recommending repack and inspections every 120 days. And for other
people...it is not 4 months, it is 120 days. Now, whether the parachute
is good after 120 days or 180 days it doesn't matter. Unless the FAA,
all of the manufacturers and PIA will change the repack cycle to 180 or
360 days, or whatever the interval might be, right now it is 120 days.
And if the manufacturer is putting on their equipment a life span, well
that is it. End of story.
Now, I have seen in Oakland, CA pilot going to fly acro in his Super
Decathlon ramp checked. His parachute was out of date and the FAA
suspended his license for 60 days. I don't remember if there were any
monetary penalty as well or just the suspension. Similar situation I
witnessed at the non existing anymore glider port in Fremont, CA. But
the violator was an instructor so the penalty was much more severe.
Besides having his license suspended his instructional privilege was in
jeopardy. Since this was in like 1986 I don't remember the particulars,
maybe that person is posting to this group and could give us some
better explanation.
And now, like a rigger to rigger...would you pack for someone a 39
years old canopy? or 27 years old canopy? I would not. We riggers,
are not just a bunch of stuck-ups, we are just like the A&P's and the
AI's with the main difference that instead using aluminum, wood or
composite we are using fabric, webbing and line. The data shows that
the fabric is degrading while packed in the container at the rate of
about 3% a year. So, 3% x 20 years = 60% loss in strength. You now as
well as I do that you can grab the F-111 fabric, which most of the
emergency canopies are made out of, and you can pull as hard as you can
and it is O'K but move your grip a foot in any direction and you will
tore the fabric with a minimal force. Performance Designs asks that
after 40 repack cycles the canopy being returned to the factory for
evaluation. Why? Because it degrades!!! And the same is true for every
single canopy especially those older then 20 years.
So guys and gals.. you can argue as much as you want but the regs and
the industry would have to change dramatically. In the mean time it is
120 days or fly without a parachute.

Great Post! My sentiments exactly! Just to be clear about what I
did: Even a sport main is under a mandatory 120 repack interval. I
made the jump with the 16 year pack job of a 35' static line rig in my
demo cutaway rig with 2 reserves. Even though a packing card is not
required with a sport main, the 120 day repack reg still applies.

On another note, I will not repack any emergency rig over 20 years
old, be it a pilot rig or sport reserve.

Bill
D-5523 yes, that number IS correct!

wrote:

... His parachute was out of date and the FAA
suspended his license for 60 days. I don't remember if there were any
monetary penalty as well or just the suspension.


The current US FAA sanction guidance table (FAA Order 2150.3A, appendix
4) states "Use of unapproved parachutes: 30 to 60 day suspension."

The FAA inspector will have some latitude in application of the
sanction, but would not normally deviate from this guidance without a
very good reason.

Same sanction as operating without approved seatbelts.

Jim

when I bailed out (LS1f) back in 1990 the first thing the Feds wanted to see
were compliance items....Annual inspection current, Biennial review current,
medical certificate (even though I didn't need it in a glider), and
PARACHUTE I&R date....
Once they saw all this was in order the rest was routine with a "Glad you're
OK" from the feds ....
You don't need to bail out to get their interrogation....they CAN do it on a
ramp check, they CAN do it as a routine inspection when they visit to do a
flight test with someone else, they can and WILL do it if you have an
accident of any kind or any violation....and when they do, and find you are
not in compliance with the regulations you know (you did pass their written
and practical exams didn't you?) and these same regulations you in fact
agreed to comply with when you signed your application to play with their
bat and ball.you CAN expect some consequence....
tim
Please visit the Wings & Wheels website at:
www.wingsandwheels.com


wrote in message
oups.com...
Yes Bill, I agree. I jumped just 2 years ago a main canopy which was
seating in the deployment bag for 4 years. I new I packed it, remove
the risers from the harness/container and had it in my packing room.
Then one day in the evening I was to lazy to pack my main so I grabbed
that old Raven II I packed over 4 years ago. No problem. It opened just
fine. But in the case of skydiving we all have a second parachute on
our backs. We are not questioning if the equipment will work or not.
The point here is that the regulations and the manufacturers
recommending repack and inspections every 120 days. And for other
people...it is not 4 months, it is 120 days. Now, whether the parachute
is good after 120 days or 180 days it doesn't matter. Unless the FAA,
all of the manufacturers and PIA will change the repack cycle to 180 or
360 days, or whatever the interval might be, right now it is 120 days.
And if the manufacturer is putting on their equipment a life span, well
that is it. End of story.
Now, I have seen in Oakland, CA pilot going to fly acro in his Super
Decathlon ramp checked. His parachute was out of date and the FAA
suspended his license for 60 days. I don't remember if there were any
monetary penalty as well or just the suspension. Similar situation I
witnessed at the non existing anymore glider port in Fremont, CA. But
the violator was an instructor so the penalty was much more severe.
Besides having his license suspended his instructional privilege was in
jeopardy. Since this was in like 1986 I don't remember the particulars,
maybe that person is posting to this group and could give us some
better explanation.
And now, like a rigger to rigger...would you pack for someone a 39
years old canopy? or 27 years old canopy? I would not. We riggers,
are not just a bunch of stuck-ups, we are just like the A&P's and the
AI's with the main difference that instead using aluminum, wood or
composite we are using fabric, webbing and line. The data shows that
the fabric is degrading while packed in the container at the rate of
about 3% a year. So, 3% x 20 years = 60% loss in strength. You now as
well as I do that you can grab the F-111 fabric, which most of the
emergency canopies are made out of, and you can pull as hard as you can
and it is O'K but move your grip a foot in any direction and you will
tore the fabric with a minimal force. Performance Designs asks that
after 40 repack cycles the canopy being returned to the factory for
evaluation. Why? Because it degrades!!! And the same is true for every
single canopy especially those older then 20 years.
So guys and gals.. you can argue as much as you want but the regs and
the industry would have to change dramatically. In the mean time it is
120 days or fly without a parachute.

Tim Mara wrote:
when I bailed out (LS1f) back in 1990 the first thing the Feds wanted to see
were compliance items....Annual inspection current, Biennial review current,
medical certificate (even though I didn't need it in a glider), and
PARACHUTE I&R date....
Once they saw all this was in order the rest was routine with a "Glad you're
OK" from the feds ....
You don't need to bail out to get their interrogation....they CAN do it on a
ramp check, they CAN do it as a routine inspection when they visit to do a
flight test with someone else, they can and WILL do it if you have an
accident of any kind or any violation....and when they do, and find you are
not in compliance with the regulations you know (you did pass their written
and practical exams didn't you?) and these same regulations you in fact
agreed to comply with when you signed your application to play with their
bat and ball.you CAN expect some consequence....

Yes, Tim. All of that is true. But just parroting "they set the rules
and you agreed to play" isn't the democracy your (and our) people are
fighting for. This discussion is about whether the rules should be changed.

Up to now I get the distinct impression from the contributions that the
riggers' union is saying - "We like the rules and we'll fight any
attempt to change them". From the raised voices, it sounds like the
consumer is starting to be heard and nobody likes it. The weakness of
your position is that if there were some logic in the rule, you'd argue
it. Your and the riggers instant resort to FAA sanctions make me feel
there is no other argument.

Here's a question to the riggers - in what ways would it be unsafe to
make the repack cycle 1 year for canopies and cases less than 10 years old?

I noticed the 5 year repack cycle parachute on the Autoflug website some
time ago but it seems to have changed. Do any German readers know if
it's a civilian or military product? The current website refers to the
"Durachute" which it describes as vacuum-packed but it seems to have a
military style harness. Perhaps the armed forces are more
cost-conscious than the FAA?

GC