Boy Who Flew With Condors - Dick Johnson? Other Comments

On Sunday, August 28, 2016 at 3:00:22 PM UTC+1, wrote:
On Sunday, August 28, 2016 at 2:19:58 AM UTC-5, wrote:
I have had numerous climb-outs from 200' in a Woodstock 11.9m. I used to practice them daily around 8:00 am at Zapata, TX.

However, in the prototype Carbon Dragon I once had a 63' agl climb-out at Hobbs at the beginning of a World Record attempt. This was witnessed by an FAI Official Observer who was appointed out of Geneva (pre-Paris) and who rigorously analyzed the barogram after the fact, being rather amazed at the time. This was utillizing mid morning, "soft" thermals which derived more than 50% of their bouyancy from latent heat in the humidity. There was some wind, and the only challenging moment was when I had to narrow my bank angle to make sure my inside wing lifted over a telephone wire while drifting by.

Gary Osoba

Gary, let's be careful with anecdotes such as yours. What you are doing in a small, very light wing-load glider is not applicable to the kind of soaring we normally do. In fact it might lead to others trying that kind of flying in a Discus or '27. My club had just yesterday a safety meeting around the topic of "Normalization of Deviance". Thermaling lower and lower and getting away with it fits that definition and has lead to numerous fatalities in our sport. Your stories are the opposite of what we need. The fact that I can throw my Discus-launch RC glider in the air and soar for long times does not mean that's the future of soaring. Please modify your post.
Herb

Herb-

I clearly identified the gliders I experienced low saves in. It's fine that you are calling attention to important factors such as W/S. I would not attempt a 63' save in my 27. Or the modified Sigma, which flies at a higher W/S than any other sailplane in the world- the other end of the W/S spectrum from the Carbon Dragon which flies at the lightest W/S in the world. However, I would not attempt pitch-based dynamic soaring in the Carbon Dragon although the Sigma is well suited to it.

The subject was low saves in a manned sailplane, not playing with your RC gliders. I'm sorry that something I have experienced- and done safely given the circumstances- appears to be offensive to you. When you have flown these gliders in these circumstances, you can recommend more actions to me. Otherwise, this is the only "modification" to my post I will make.

Gary

Chris Jury was a local Tehachapian. Jury Road is where their ranch was, I think his dad was an airline pilot. Chris died in a plane accident I believe in the 70s.
Margaret Birsner and her brother John flew gliders with Fred Harris here in Tehachapi. John was at Stanford when the show was made and now is a retired ob/gyn physician in Lancaster, ca. Margaret was attending a private Catholic high school in the bay area when the show was made. She married an older physician and I believe is now living in Israel. Margaret and John's dad was J.W. Birsner, a prominent radiologist in Bakersfield and Lancaster. John told me that he and others were concerned that Margaret might be exploited by the capitalist Disney Corp - remember this was the 60s.

On Sunday, August 28, 2016 at 1:19:58 AM UTC-6, wrote:
I have had numerous climb-outs from 200' in a Woodstock 11.9m. I used to practice them daily around 8:00 am at Zapata, TX.

However, in the prototype Carbon Dragon I once had a 63' agl climb-out at Hobbs at the beginning of a World Record attempt. This was witnessed by an FAI Official Observer who was appointed out of Geneva (pre-Paris) and who rigorously analyzed the barogram after the fact, being rather amazed at the time. This was utillizing mid morning, "soft" thermals which derived more than 50% of their bouyancy from latent heat in the humidity. There was some wind, and the only challenging moment was when I had to narrow my bank angle to make sure my inside wing lifted over a telephone wire while drifting by.

Gary Osoba

Oh yea baby! Pre Paris, Now those were the days. Of course one has to analyze the baro after the fact because watching the baro doing its thing during flight is just boring. Ive never seen a telephone line drift but we don't have to worry about that these days because everyone has a cell phone.
Did I ever tell you about my low save at 20 ft agl? Of course I was in a turboprop and some ding a ling in an ag plane who's world end at 200 ft (Is that agl or msl, I dont remember) decided to take off on an intersecting runway. Of course I am one of the mindless low time idiots who likes arbitrary rules like going around when I am about to hit someone.
We should ad points at contests for "Lowest save" and double points over ul-landable terrain (Are you listening rules comity).
Pilots who walk on water are awesome!

Le mercredi 27 août 2008 04:06:41 UTC+2, ContestID67 a écritÂ*:
I finally got around to watching this 1967 movie which I bought on
eBay more than a month ago. It was surprisingly well done. Not that
Walt ever put out a bad product, his production values were always top
notch. However, when the popular media shows soaring, I often see
realism and accuracy go right out the cockpit window, maybe especially
via Hollywood and their non-accuracy for the sake of making a movie
that sells (Thomas Crown Affair nonwithstanding). Anyway, it was a
pretty good show and I can imagine that watching this as a kid could
easily have gotten you bitten by the soaring bug.

Some general comments, questions and ramblings. Warning - there are
movie spoilers below (no pun intended);

* There is a reference in the movie to a pilot that "set a record of
over 600 miles between Odessa, TX and Nebraska riding a storm front".
Was that Dick Johnson? Jim Short mentioned Dick's record to me just
last night and said that it stood for over 10 years. He also
mentioned that Dick flew a glider of his own design (don't recall the
name). Damn shame about Dick. Great guy.
* While I am sure that many of the soaring types shown in the movie
are the real deal, did the two teenagers (Chris Jury and Margaret ???)
exist or were they simply Hollywood actors? If real, did they do
their own flying (the Torres Pines beach takeoff especially).
* I caught tail numbers for the 1-26 and 2-22 flown in the movie.
N2788Z and N8658R respectively. According to the NTSB the 1-26 is
currently owned by Paul Fuller and appears to still be flying in
Powell, OH. The 2-22 is currently owned by Craig Stanford and appears
to also still be flying in Beaverton, WA. I wonder if they know they
own famous gliders?
* The release from tow was shown as the standard tow plane goes left
and glider goes right. Except, that is, in the case of Chris' first
solo in which the tow plane goes right and the glider goes straight
ahead. Was the release flight path a standard as far back as 1964 or
was it less regimented back then?
* Chris gets his Silver, Gold and Diamond during the movie (pretty
impressive kid). They use the older "Silver-C" and "Diamond-C"
nomenclature. What did the C stand for? Is this nomenclature still
used outside the US?
* Leslie Nielson is the narrator and the only person credited in the
titles. My son only knows Leslie from his movie spoofs and was
surprised that he actually ever had serious roles (reference
"Forbidden Planet")
* Can a 1-26 really thermal away from an auto tow behind a Model T on
a 200 foot rope? Can you actually stand up-right immediately
following a 5 hour flight in a 1-26? ;-) Ahhh, that's Hollywood for
you.

Thanks, John

the link is not working for me (obsolote)

thanks

I meant this link from old post

http://tinyurl.com/54rgph

On Sunday, August 28, 2016 at 7:00:22 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, August 28, 2016 at 2:19:58 AM UTC-5, wrote:
I have had numerous climb-outs from 200' in a Woodstock 11.9m. I used to practice them daily around 8:00 am at Zapata, TX.

However, in the prototype Carbon Dragon I once had a 63' agl climb-out at Hobbs at the beginning of a World Record attempt. This was witnessed by an FAI Official Observer who was appointed out of Geneva (pre-Paris) and who rigorously analyzed the barogram after the fact, being rather amazed at the time. This was utillizing mid morning, "soft" thermals which derived more than 50% of their bouyancy from latent heat in the humidity. There was some wind, and the only challenging moment was when I had to narrow my bank angle to make sure my inside wing lifted over a telephone wire while drifting by.

Gary Osoba

Gary, let's be careful with anecdotes such as yours. What you are doing in a small, very light wing-load glider is not applicable to the kind of soaring we normally do. In fact it might lead to others trying that kind of flying in a Discus or '27. My club had just yesterday a safety meeting around the topic of "Normalization of Deviance". Thermaling lower and lower and getting away with it fits that definition and has lead to numerous fatalities in our sport. Your stories are the opposite of what we need. The fact that I can throw my Discus-launch RC glider in the air and soar for long times does not mean that's the future of soaring. Please modify your post.
Herb

I never liked the phrase "normalization of deviance" - it is just too clinical. A better understood phrase that means exactly the same thing, and is understood by all, is "pushing the limits."

On Wednesday, August 27, 2008 at 11:36:41 AM UTC+9:30, ContestID67 wrote:
I finally got around to watching this 1967 movie which I bought on
eBay more than a month ago. It was surprisingly well done. Not that
Walt ever put out a bad product, his production values were always top
notch. However, when the popular media shows soaring, I often see
realism and accuracy go right out the cockpit window, maybe especially
via Hollywood and their non-accuracy for the sake of making a movie
that sells (Thomas Crown Affair nonwithstanding). Anyway, it was a
pretty good show and I can imagine that watching this as a kid could
easily have gotten you bitten by the soaring bug.

Some general comments, questions and ramblings. Warning - there are
movie spoilers below (no pun intended);

* There is a reference in the movie to a pilot that "set a record of
over 600 miles between Odessa, TX and Nebraska riding a storm front".
Was that Dick Johnson? Jim Short mentioned Dick's record to me just
last night and said that it stood for over 10 years. He also
mentioned that Dick flew a glider of his own design (don't recall the
name). Damn shame about Dick. Great guy.
* While I am sure that many of the soaring types shown in the movie
are the real deal, did the two teenagers (Chris Jury and Margaret ???)
exist or were they simply Hollywood actors? If real, did they do
their own flying (the Torres Pines beach takeoff especially).
* I caught tail numbers for the 1-26 and 2-22 flown in the movie.
N2788Z and N8658R respectively. According to the NTSB the 1-26 is
currently owned by Paul Fuller and appears to still be flying in
Powell, OH. The 2-22 is currently owned by Craig Stanford and appears
to also still be flying in Beaverton, WA. I wonder if they know they
own famous gliders?
* The release from tow was shown as the standard tow plane goes left
and glider goes right. Except, that is, in the case of Chris' first
solo in which the tow plane goes right and the glider goes straight
ahead. Was the release flight path a standard as far back as 1964 or
was it less regimented back then?
* Chris gets his Silver, Gold and Diamond during the movie (pretty
impressive kid). They use the older "Silver-C" and "Diamond-C"
nomenclature. What did the C stand for? Is this nomenclature still
used outside the US?
* Leslie Nielson is the narrator and the only person credited in the
titles. My son only knows Leslie from his movie spoofs and was
surprised that he actually ever had serious roles (reference
"Forbidden Planet")
* Can a 1-26 really thermal away from an auto tow behind a Model T on
a 200 foot rope? Can you actually stand up-right immediately
following a 5 hour flight in a 1-26? ;-) Ahhh, that's Hollywood for
you.

Thanks, John

That was SO cool! I remember as a kid seeing another Disney show about gliding- probably made later (I think Blaniks featured). It had more dialogue- sort of followed a family who had a gliding business- anyone know that one?

On Sunday, April 26, 2020 at 3:22:54 AM UTC-5, wrote:
* There is a reference in the movie to a pilot that "set a record of
over 600 miles between Odessa, TX and Nebraska riding a storm front".
Was that Dick Johnson? Jim Short mentioned Dick's record to me just
last night and said that it stood for over 10 years. He also
mentioned that Dick flew a glider of his own design (don't recall the
name). Damn shame about Dick. Great guy.

Dick Johnson did set a distance record but the movie reference may likely be about Al Parker in an Arlington Sisu sailplane making the first 1,000 kilometer soaring flight in the world in July of 1964 from his hometown of Odessa, TX across Colorado to Kimball, Nebraska, well over 600 miles. That historic Sisu is on display in the Smithsonian Udvar-Hazy aviation museum near Dulles, VA. Excellent article with better details about the flight in a 1964 fall issue of SOARING magazine. (I'm not in Marfa to access my fat file on the Sisu sailplane history - gone since April 27. Heading back to Marfa in a week or two.)

On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 9:47:01 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
On Sunday, August 28, 2016 at 7:00:22 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, August 28, 2016 at 2:19:58 AM UTC-5, wrote:
I have had numerous climb-outs from 200' in a Woodstock 11.9m. I used to practice them daily around 8:00 am at Zapata, TX.

However, in the prototype Carbon Dragon I once had a 63' agl climb-out at Hobbs at the beginning of a World Record attempt. This was witnessed by an FAI Official Observer who was appointed out of Geneva (pre-Paris) and who rigorously analyzed the barogram after the fact, being rather amazed at the time. This was utillizing mid morning, "soft" thermals which derived more than 50% of their bouyancy from latent heat in the humidity. There was some wind, and the only challenging moment was when I had to narrow my bank angle to make sure my inside wing lifted over a telephone wire while drifting by.

Gary Osoba

Gary, let's be careful with anecdotes such as yours. What you are doing in a small, very light wing-load glider is not applicable to the kind of soaring we normally do. In fact it might lead to others trying that kind of flying in a Discus or '27. My club had just yesterday a safety meeting around the topic of "Normalization of Deviance". Thermaling lower and lower and getting away with it fits that definition and has lead to numerous fatalities in our sport. Your stories are the opposite of what we need. The fact that I can throw my Discus-launch RC glider in the air and soar for long times does not mean that's the future of soaring. Please modify your post.
Herb

I never liked the phrase "normalization of deviance" - it is just too clinical. A better understood phrase that means exactly the same thing, and is understood by all, is "pushing the limits."

2G,
I Think a good case can be made that "normalization of deviance" is not the same as "pushing limits" Generally, I think pushing limits has a factor of knowing what the limits are and intentionally exceeding them. Example, performing aerobatics when not trained for them, or flying over vne or overgross.

Both U.S. space shuttles were lost due to "normalization of deviance" first was
a cold weather launch, second was external tank foam shedding and damaging shuttle wing. I do not think anybody was knowingly "pushing limits"

If a pilot has an incident during pushing limits, they might think "crap!"
If a pilot has an incident resulting from "N.O.D." they will probably think
"what is happening"
Normalization of deviance is much more subtle and gradual.

Respect,
Scott

On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 2:55:09 AM UTC-5, RossFW wrote:
On Wednesday, August 27, 2008 at 11:36:41 AM UTC+9:30, ContestID67 wrote:
I finally got around to watching this 1967 movie which I bought on
eBay more than a month ago. It was surprisingly well done. Not that
Walt ever put out a bad product, his production values were always top
notch. However, when the popular media shows soaring, I often see
realism and accuracy go right out the cockpit window, maybe especially
via Hollywood and their non-accuracy for the sake of making a movie
that sells (Thomas Crown Affair nonwithstanding). Anyway, it was a
pretty good show and I can imagine that watching this as a kid could
easily have gotten you bitten by the soaring bug.

Some general comments, questions and ramblings. Warning - there are
movie spoilers below (no pun intended);

* There is a reference in the movie to a pilot that "set a record of
over 600 miles between Odessa, TX and Nebraska riding a storm front".
Was that Dick Johnson? Jim Short mentioned Dick's record to me just
last night and said that it stood for over 10 years. He also
mentioned that Dick flew a glider of his own design (don't recall the
name). Damn shame about Dick. Great guy.
* While I am sure that many of the soaring types shown in the movie
are the real deal, did the two teenagers (Chris Jury and Margaret ???)
exist or were they simply Hollywood actors? If real, did they do
their own flying (the Torres Pines beach takeoff especially).
* I caught tail numbers for the 1-26 and 2-22 flown in the movie.
N2788Z and N8658R respectively. According to the NTSB the 1-26 is
currently owned by Paul Fuller and appears to still be flying in
Powell, OH. The 2-22 is currently owned by Craig Stanford and appears
to also still be flying in Beaverton, WA. I wonder if they know they
own famous gliders?
* The release from tow was shown as the standard tow plane goes left
and glider goes right. Except, that is, in the case of Chris' first
solo in which the tow plane goes right and the glider goes straight
ahead. Was the release flight path a standard as far back as 1964 or
was it less regimented back then?
* Chris gets his Silver, Gold and Diamond during the movie (pretty
impressive kid). They use the older "Silver-C" and "Diamond-C"
nomenclature. What did the C stand for? Is this nomenclature still
used outside the US?
* Leslie Nielson is the narrator and the only person credited in the
titles. My son only knows Leslie from his movie spoofs and was
surprised that he actually ever had serious roles (reference
"Forbidden Planet")
* Can a 1-26 really thermal away from an auto tow behind a Model T on
a 200 foot rope? Can you actually stand up-right immediately
following a 5 hour flight in a 1-26? ;-) Ahhh, that's Hollywood for
you.

Thanks, John

That was SO cool! I remember as a kid seeing another Disney show about gliding- probably made later (I think Blaniks featured). It had more dialogue- sort of followed a family who had a gliding business- anyone know that one?

Ross - believe you are referring to Call To Glory, a TV series featuring Craig T. Nelson as an Air Force Colonel and included a young Elisabeth Shue as his daughter, who took flying lessons in a Blanik.