TAT scoring question

The obscure provision of the rules that stops you from keeping one
"finish" in the bag and trying for more is this one:

11.2.2.4.4 If all claimed turnpoints are valid, and the pilot
obtained a scored start time, a finish time prior to finish closing
and landed at the contest site, then the pilot has completed the task.

Note "And landed at the contest site." Yes, you can go back and go
deeper into the last turn, and you can also try more turnpoints on an
MAT, but if you land out you don't get to call your pass by the
airport a "finish".

Similarly, you can fly the whole course again if you like. However, if
you land out the second time around, the first one can only count for
distance points, not for speed points. Thus, it's usually a good idea
to land, turn in the trace, and take off again if you want to do the
task a second time.

However, as far as I can tell, you CAN call your first passage the
"finish" for scoring purposes if you're willing to take the land-out
risk. For example, if you try another turnpoint in a MAT but then turn
around and land home, or even if you make it but it gives you a slower
time overall, nothing stops you from calling the first passage a
"finish."

The flight documentation interval is the time between LANDING and
turning in the score, not the time between FINISHING and turning in
the score

10.10.1.1 Flight Documentation Interval (FDI)
This is the maximum time that may elapse between a landing at the
contest site and the submission of a Landing Card and flight
documentation to the Scorer. When not otherwise designated by the CD,
a value of 1 hour shall be used.

Does anyone disagree with this interpretation? I can't find a "finish
time interval" (nor can edit find in the SSA rules) between the time
of finish and landing.

John Cochrane BB



Mark Zivley wrote in message . com...
If you have a Turn Area Task and you fly into turn 1, then fly into turn
2 then pass through the finish circle could/should it be possible to
leave the finish circle and return to turn 2 and fly deeper into the
circle than you did the first time and then return to the finish circle?

On an option task, you could return to the finish, leave and attempt to
go to an additional turnpoint, but if you landed out you could (if I
understand this correctly) fill out your landing card as you had
finished the first time and not be penalized for the landout. However,
if you successfully made an additional turnpoint and returned to the
finish point you could then add that distance to your task (via landing
card) if you so chose.

If you can do that for an option task, could one apply similar logic to
the TAT as I describe above. Take a "finish" to make sure you didn't
land out, and if conditions improved then go back to the last turn point
and fly to a farther point within the circle. There is no credit for
adding an additional turnpoint, just pushing the second turnpoint mark
farther out for a longer distance calculation for the original task.

Winscore does not allow this in it's current thinking and it's kind of a
moot point because a change in our score wouldn't change our standing
for either the day or the overall, but it certainly begs for a
clarification. It might be nice to clarify this point in the rules
because someone might enter the finish cylinder one day without any
intent to "finish", but receive a "finish" from Winscore they weren't
expecting.

Mark

Mark,
You are free to claim the contest site as a turn point
and then proceed to another turn point, but if you
land out or start your engine, you will get distance
points only. It's your devious attempt to have your
cake and eat it too, that has me upset.
JJ

John Cochrane wrote:
The obscure provision of the rules that stops you from keeping one
"finish" in the bag and trying for more is this one:

11.2.2.4.4 If all claimed turnpoints are valid, and the pilot
obtained a scored start time, a finish time prior to finish closing
and landed at the contest site, then the pilot has completed the task.

Note "And landed at the contest site." Yes, you can go back and go
deeper into the last turn, and you can also try more turnpoints on an
MAT, but if you land out you don't get to call your pass by the
airport a "finish".

So, if a motorglider pilot tried this, then ended up using the motor
(effectively a landout) to return to the contest site, he would have
hurt his score just as much as the pilot of an unpowered glider that
tries the same thing and actually lands out.


--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

The flight documentation interval is the time between LANDING and
turning in the score, not the time between FINISHING and turning in
the score

10.10.1.1 Flight Documentation Interval (FDI)
This is the maximum time that may elapse between a landing at the
contest site and the submission of a Landing Card and flight
documentation to the Scorer. When not otherwise designated by the CD,
a value of 1 hour shall be used.

Does anyone disagree with this interpretation? I can't find a "finish
time interval" (nor can edit find in the SSA rules) between the time
of finish and landing.

John Cochrane BB

John,

I recall the "LTI- Landing Time Interval"(?) that I think was dropped when the
dataloggers came in. I can't find any mention of it in the rules now)

Specifying a max time between the finish and subsequent landing kept the
"creative" competitors from finishing and then flying out to add another nearby
turnpoint to their filmstrip.

Curt Lewis - 95
Genesis 2

My opinion:

Starts and finishes are announced on the radio. No TP's before even
an unclaimed re-start are usable. No TP's after even an unclaimed
earlier finish are usable. Not only that but the required on-site
landing to get speed points must occur at the end of the very flight
containing all claimed control points.

Otherwise chaos:

The rules don't permit "stealth" finishes, although the scorekeeper
might not notice one:

10.9.3.4.1 When four miles from the cylinder perimeter, the pilot
shall transmit "[Contest ID] four miles."
10.9.3.4.2 Upon entering the finish cylinder, the pilot shall transmit
"[Contest ID] finished." If the finish is
substantially above the bottom of the finish cylinder, the altitude
may be included; altitude should be
announced as either MSL or AGL.
10.9.4.3 Communications
When four miles from the finish gate, the pilot shall transmit
"[Contest ID] four miles." The Gate Director will
respond, "[Contest ID]."

So the question is can a pilot call multiple starts/finishes and
choose the best scoring one?

There is a rule explicitly permitting using the best-scoring start
(10.8.2.1). I can't find a rule prohibiting multiple finishes. But
still, I think the intention is that any TPs in hand are zapped by
re-starting and that the first finish must be used. I just can't find
a rule that says so.

Turnpoint shenanigans aside, if one entered the finish cylinder too
low, called a finish, climbed up and re-finished high enough, could
one use the better scoring finish?

To preclude undertime penalties and keep more options open, how about
this? On a long soaring day can one start, fly the designated sequence
of TP's, start again at the "optimal" time, fly the designated
sequence again, and finish? And claim the best of twice around, the
first attempt, or the second attempt afterwards?

10.5.1.2 Flight documentation must show that control points were
achieved in the proper sequence;
out-of-sequence points shall be ignored.

Are TP's between two starts or two finishes "out of sequence", even if
they are between the claimed valid start and the claimed good finish?
I think this is the intention of the rules. That any start, claimed
or not, wipes prior TPs, and any finish, claimed or not, wipes
subsequent TPs.

11.2.2.4.4 If all claimed turnpoints are valid, and the pilot
obtained a scored start time, a finish time prior to finish closing
and landed at the contest site, then the pilot has completed the task.

The landing is not a control point, so does it have to follow the
finish to satisfy 10.5.1.2 and 11.2.2.4.4? Can jailhouse lawyers
relight to get in the required on site landing before the task opens?
It's no good doing a flight after your retrieve to get the finish or
on-site landing in, because 10.8.2.1 does in the starts from your
previous flights.

10.8.2.1 A valid start is a start obtained after the task has opened
and after the pilot's last launch. A pilot must
have a valid start to be given a scored start time. In general, the
best-scoring valid start is used.

Rule 10.8.2.1 also seems to preclude landing, turning in
documentation, and trying again. Each launch would invalidate the the
starts of the previous flight. But trying again on a second flight is
explicitly permitted elsewhere in the rules.

Glad I'm not a lawyer or rule writer. Tough job to avoid loopholes
and contradictions.

Jonathan Gere

(John Cochrane) wrote in message . com...
The obscure provision of the rules that stops you from keeping one
"finish" in the bag and trying for more is this one:

11.2.2.4.4 If all claimed turnpoints are valid, and the pilot
obtained a scored start time, a finish time prior to finish closing
and landed at the contest site, then the pilot has completed the task.

Note "And landed at the contest site." Yes, you can go back and go
deeper into the last turn, and you can also try more turnpoints on an
MAT, but if you land out you don't get to call your pass by the
airport a "finish".

Similarly, you can fly the whole course again if you like. However, if
you land out the second time around, the first one can only count for
distance points, not for speed points. Thus, it's usually a good idea
to land, turn in the trace, and take off again if you want to do the
task a second time.

However, as far as I can tell, you CAN call your first passage the
"finish" for scoring purposes if you're willing to take the land-out
risk. For example, if you try another turnpoint in a MAT but then turn
around and land home, or even if you make it but it gives you a slower
time overall, nothing stops you from calling the first passage a
"finish."

The flight documentation interval is the time between LANDING and
turning in the score, not the time between FINISHING and turning in
the score

10.10.1.1 Flight Documentation Interval (FDI)
This is the maximum time that may elapse between a landing at the
contest site and the submission of a Landing Card and flight
documentation to the Scorer. When not otherwise designated by the CD,
a value of 1 hour shall be used.

Does anyone disagree with this interpretation? I can't find a "finish
time interval" (nor can edit find in the SSA rules) between the time
of finish and landing.

John Cochrane BB



Mark Zivley wrote in message . com...
If you have a Turn Area Task and you fly into turn 1, then fly into turn
2 then pass through the finish circle could/should it be possible to
leave the finish circle and return to turn 2 and fly deeper into the
circle than you did the first time and then return to the finish circle?

On an option task, you could return to the finish, leave and attempt to
go to an additional turnpoint, but if you landed out you could (if I
understand this correctly) fill out your landing card as you had
finished the first time and not be penalized for the landout. However,
if you successfully made an additional turnpoint and returned to the
finish point you could then add that distance to your task (via landing
card) if you so chose.

If you can do that for an option task, could one apply similar logic to
the TAT as I describe above. Take a "finish" to make sure you didn't
land out, and if conditions improved then go back to the last turn point
and fly to a farther point within the circle. There is no credit for
adding an additional turnpoint, just pushing the second turnpoint mark
farther out for a longer distance calculation for the original task.

Winscore does not allow this in it's current thinking and it's kind of a
moot point because a change in our score wouldn't change our standing
for either the day or the overall, but it certainly begs for a
clarification. It might be nice to clarify this point in the rules
because someone might enter the finish cylinder one day without any
intent to "finish", but receive a "finish" from Winscore they weren't
expecting.

Mark

Jonathan....as confusing as the rules are I think that they are not nearly
as confusing as you are making them out to be.

First of all you can say whatever you wish on the radio but it makes
absolutely NO difference now i.e. the "good finish" stuff is simply a
courtesy leftover from the old days. I don't see any rule that says once
you "say" you are going to finish that you are required to do so.

The original point was to ask if it is "legal" to finish then take a chance
that you could make another turn on an MAT task. There was another re TAT's
but I think we've covered that. There is no rule that I can see precluding
anyone from "finishing" high then going on to another turnpoint to see if
they could make it and if so claiming the prior "finish" was one of their
turnpoints with them in the end adding at least one more turn prior to the
"real" finish.

In practicality I think both of these situations would arise only rarely but
as weird as the weather can be am sure that eventually it would occur. I
think Mark has brought up some good points and it is always good to put the
rules to the test if not in flight then theoretically.

Casey Lenox
KC
Phoenix

(John Cochrane) wrote in message

Does anyone disagree with this interpretation? I can't find a "finish
time interval" (nor can edit find in the SSA rules) between the time
of finish and landing.

John Cochrane BB


Agree. The FTI, a max time between finishing and landing, went away a
while ago. The intention of that rule, like the STI, was to stop
contestants getting pictures of additional turnpoints after finishing
(or before starting). Like STI, FTI was dropped when cameras were no
longer allowed, not when loggers were allowed. There was an overlap
when both cameras and loggers were used. I think I was the last US
competitor to use cameras in a national.

Andy

Leaving out the more absurd loopholes (all claimed control points and
the required on-site landing not contained in a single flight) and
contradictions (inability to re-launch on a second attempt, without
invalidating the start from the successful task completion during the
previous flight); I don't think this thread has correctly analysed
the issues of multiple finishes. Whatever conclusions have been
reached about inserting TPs(MAT) and extending TPs (TAT) between two
finishes would seem to me to apply equally and more so to keeping in
the pocket TPs reached between two starts. After all it is explicit
in the U.S. rules that the best scoring start be scored, which is more
than can be said regarding multiple finishes. Also, calling back
starts is only required if the CD chooses, but calling finishes (and
"Finished" past tense on cylinders) or being observed by the gate
(on lines) is always required.

You think this radio chatter is just a quaint anachronism. I think it
is the only test of an actual start/finish, as opposed to a flight
path just happening to pass through the start/finish zones. I don't
think WinScore or the scorer can be expected to determine the pilots'
intentions from the flight path.

I think adding or extending TPs between multiple starts or finishes is
not the intent or (gasp) spirit of the rules. I don't think you can
get away with it at a contest IF anyone notices. I think that such
TPs are considered "out of sequence", even if they could just as well
be looked at as "in sequence" by disregarding unwanted later starts or
earlier finishes.

Bottom line. I think you finished or you didn't, based on your radio
chatter. If you finished you have no further chance to go out and add
/extend TPs. If you didn't than you have no finish in the bag to fall
back on. I believe accepting the landout risk applies ONLY to making
a second attempt without landing and turning in documentation. Going
out after finishing without re-starting has no possible reward.

Jonathan

PS Didn't we have the exact same thread last year? Perhaps the rule
writer should comment on whether there are multiple choice starts and
finishes with TP's in between. I think any TPs before your last start
or after your first finish are intended to be null and void. This is
nearly impossible to enforce in the case of non-called in starts.

"Kilo Charlie" wrote in message news:tURYc.5278$Mf.3157@fed1read02...
Jonathan....as confusing as the rules are I think that they are not nearly
as confusing as you are making them out to be.

First of all you can say whatever you wish on the radio but it makes
absolutely NO difference now i.e. the "good finish" stuff is simply a
courtesy leftover from the old days. I don't see any rule that says once
you "say" you are going to finish that you are required to do so.

The original point was to ask if it is "legal" to finish then take a chance
that you could make another turn on an MAT task. There was another re TAT's
but I think we've covered that. There is no rule that I can see precluding
anyone from "finishing" high then going on to another turnpoint to see if
they could make it and if so claiming the prior "finish" was one of their
turnpoints with them in the end adding at least one more turn prior to the
"real" finish.

In practicality I think both of these situations would arise only rarely but
as weird as the weather can be am sure that eventually it would occur. I
think Mark has brought up some good points and it is always good to put the
rules to the test if not in flight then theoretically.

Casey Lenox
KC
Phoenix

(Jonathan Gere) wrote in message . com...
To preclude undertime penalties and keep more options open, how about
this? On a long soaring day can one start, fly the designated sequence
of TP's, start again at the "optimal" time, fly the designated
sequence again, and finish? And claim the best of twice around, the
first attempt, or the second attempt afterwards?

If you used separate loggers, who would know?

A friend of mine and I did something similar a few years ago, during a
local contest that had a short task called on a good day: She flew
the task in my plane (hers was down for maintenance, I think),
starting soon after the gate opened. When she finished, I figured the
day was good enough to give me time to give it a go, so I jumped in my
glider as soon as she landed, took off, and flew the task myself.

She beat me by 1 mph, I think.

Kirk

(Jonathan Gere) wrote in message . com...
My opinion:
....snip...
Are TP's between two starts or two finishes "out of sequence", even if
they are between the claimed valid start and the claimed good finish?
I think this is the intention of the rules. That any start, claimed
or not, wipes prior TPs, and any finish, claimed or not, wipes
subsequent TPs.

Suppose I'm flying a POST and do the following:
Start, A, B, Home, C, D, Finish

If the 'Home' TP happens to coincide with the Finish cylinder, then
I'm unable to claim part of my valid task by your definition. If the
finish cylinder is on the B - Home or Home - C leg, must I go around
it?

What if I come home and plan to go to C, but circumstances are such
that I decide to finish instead. Do have to reenter the finish
cylinder to get a valid finish or did that entry I made 10 minutes (or
2 hours, since I spent that time at 500' a mile the other side of the
airport) ago count for a finish?

Finish announcements are, IMHO, purely for safety and operations.
Scoring is done by validating your landing card claim with the IGC
log.

IF a pilot chooses to go around twice without landing after the first
(announced or stealthy) finish, then he is at risk of getting distance
points if he lands out or starts the engine on the second attempt.
Making a landing and officially observed takeoff, allows him to use
the first flight if the second attempt ends with a landout.

Tom Serkowski