Texas Tragedy Info?

At 02:30 20 June 2012, Bill D wrote:
Tail dollies and wing wheels, once removed are placed to the side,
forward of the wing tip where the pilot can see it, but far enough
away that the wing runner will not trip over it.

YES! This is the way to do it. When the pilot gets to "Dolly" on the
checklist, a quick look to the side confirms it is off. It helps if
your dolly is a unique color not to be confused with another.

I'm new to gliding so excuse my ignorance, but shouldnt the D(olly) check
be done before you get into the plane or is there no standard on the ABCD
checks?
Rather than checking that the Dolly (or someone elses that looks like
yours) is on the grass to the side it would make more sense that you
confirm, regardless of whos Dolly it is... it isnt attached to the back of
your plane?

We talk about how fatigue and dehydration can lead to a reduction in the pilots ability to think and fly the glider....I can assure you that chasing rope and hooking up gliders in the hot sun all day long without proper attention to hydration can have the same effect. This tragedy was the last flight of the day and I can well imagine that everyone was tired and not at their best. Not making an excuse here, just suggesting that we all pay attention to this debilitating situation.

While it is always the responsibility of the PIC to insure that his glider is airworthy, the ground crew is the last line of insurance against such mistakes. On many occasions I have spent a few hours launching gliders in the hot Florida sun and then flew myself. I found myself sucking most of the water from my Camelbak before I took off and was amazed at how thirsty I had become. When you feel thirsty, your level of dehydration is already excessive potentially reducing your attention to critical details. Clubs and commercial operations need to pay attention to such potentialities and take actions to insure that no one pushes things too far.

I had the opportunity to learn first hand how lack of nutrition and hydration can affect ones performance under controlled situations in Air Force Combat Crew Survival Schools. We can go a long time without food but H20 is critical.

Condolences to the family.

Walt

On Jun 19, 8:25*pm, Ben Brand wrote:
At 02:30 20 June 2012, Bill D wrote: Tail dollies and wing wheels, once removed are placed to the side,
forward of the wing tip where the pilot can see it, but far enough
away that the wing runner will not trip over it.

YES! *This is the way to do it. *When the pilot gets to "Dolly" on the
checklist, a quick look to the side confirms it is off. *It helps if
your dolly is a unique color not to be confused with another.

I'm new to gliding so excuse my ignorance, but shouldnt the D(olly) check
be done before you get into the plane or is there no standard on the ABCD
checks?
Rather than checking that the Dolly (or someone elses that looks like
yours) is on the grass to the side it would make more sense that you
confirm, regardless of whos Dolly it is... it isnt attached to the back of
your plane?

Some locations.. to save time on an active shared runway.. shared with
powered aircraft. If there are enough people for ground handling, the
pilot will get in and strap in before being pushed to the runway..
leave the tail dolly off for easier ground movement.
So the dolly may or may not be removed before the pilot gets strapped
in.

T

It has not been mentioned (yet), but did the Lark have a CG hook, or a
nose hook?
Things can get out of hand quickly with a CG hook if attention is
diverted.




On Jun 20, 10:17*am, T wrote:
On Jun 19, 8:25*pm, Ben Brand wrote:

At 02:30 20 June 2012, Bill D wrote: Tail dollies and wing wheels, once removed are placed to the side,
forward of the wing tip where the pilot can see it, but far enough
away that the wing runner will not trip over it.

YES! *This is the way to do it. *When the pilot gets to "Dolly" on the
checklist, a quick look to the side confirms it is off. *It helps if
your dolly is a unique color not to be confused with another.

I'm new to gliding so excuse my ignorance, but shouldnt the D(olly) check
be done before you get into the plane or is there no standard on the ABCD
checks?
Rather than checking that the Dolly (or someone elses that looks like
yours) is on the grass to the side it would make more sense that you
confirm, regardless of whos Dolly it is... it isnt attached to the back of
your plane?

Some locations.. to save time on an active shared runway.. shared with
powered aircraft. If there are enough people for ground handling, the
pilot will get in and strap in before being pushed to the runway..
leave the tail dolly off for easier ground movement.
So the dolly may or may not be removed before the pilot gets strapped
in.

T

On Jun 19, 9:25*pm, Ben Brand wrote:
At 02:30 20 June 2012, Bill D wrote: Tail dollies and wing wheels, once removed are placed to the side,
forward of the wing tip where the pilot can see it, but far enough
away that the wing runner will not trip over it.

YES! *This is the way to do it. *When the pilot gets to "Dolly" on the
checklist, a quick look to the side confirms it is off. *It helps if
your dolly is a unique color not to be confused with another.

I'm new to gliding so excuse my ignorance, but shouldnt the D(olly) check
be done before you get into the plane or is there no standard on the ABCD
checks?
Rather than checking that the Dolly (or someone elses that looks like
yours) is on the grass to the side it would make more sense that you
confirm, regardless of whos Dolly it is... it isnt attached to the back of
your plane?

Many times a glider with pilot in the cockpit must to be pushed onto
the runway to avoid blocking the runway any longer than necessary.
This means the dolly must be left on until the glider is in position
for takeoff then be removed by a crew person. I much prefer this
method since I have generous time to strap in, get comfortable and
prepare the cockpit for takeoff without being rushed but I do need to
see the dolly on the ground.

On 6/19/2012 9:25 PM, Ben Brand wrote:
At 02:30 20 June 2012, Bill D wrote:
Tail dollies and wing wheels, once removed are placed to the side,
forward of the wing tip where the pilot can see it, but far enough
away that the wing runner will not trip over it.

YES! This is the way to do it. When the pilot gets to "Dolly" on the
checklist, a quick look to the side confirms it is off. It helps if
your dolly is a unique color not to be confused with another.

I'm new to gliding so excuse my ignorance, but shouldnt the D(olly) check
be done before you get into the plane or is there no standard on the ABCD
checks?
Rather than checking that the Dolly (or someone elses that looks like
yours) is on the grass to the side it would make more sense that you
confirm, regardless of whos Dolly it is... it isnt attached to the back of
your plane?


Ben,

Excellent question.

Since others have already noted situations - and hence operations - vary
depending on lots of things (e.g. runway[s] layout[s], airfield traffic,
available help, etc., this seems a good place to encourage you to visit other
glider operations every excuse you get. It's fun and you'll learn lots.

You'll definitely see lots of variations on 'things.'

Don't assume different ways of skinning cats are equally good! Keep asking,
"Why?" until your rational sense understands the answers...some of which may
surprise you, and not in good ways. (F'r'example "We've always done it this
way," may be accurate - and simultaneously promote procedurally-based accidents.)

Bob W.

On Jun 20, 8:30*am, Hartley Falbaum wrote:
It has not been mentioned (yet), but did the Lark have a CG hook, or a
nose hook?
Things can get out of hand quickly with a CG hook if attention is
diverted.

On Jun 20, 10:17*am, T wrote:







On Jun 19, 8:25*pm, Ben Brand wrote:

At 02:30 20 June 2012, Bill D wrote: Tail dollies and wing wheels, once removed are placed to the side,
forward of the wing tip where the pilot can see it, but far enough
away that the wing runner will not trip over it.

YES! *This is the way to do it. *When the pilot gets to "Dolly" on the
checklist, a quick look to the side confirms it is off. *It helps if
your dolly is a unique color not to be confused with another.

I'm new to gliding so excuse my ignorance, but shouldnt the D(olly) check
be done before you get into the plane or is there no standard on the ABCD
checks?
Rather than checking that the Dolly (or someone elses that looks like
yours) is on the grass to the side it would make more sense that you
confirm, regardless of whos Dolly it is... it isnt attached to the back of
your plane?

Some locations.. to save time on an active shared runway.. shared with
powered aircraft. If there are enough people for ground handling, the
pilot will get in and strap in before being pushed to the runway..
leave the tail dolly off for easier ground movement.
So the dolly may or may not be removed before the pilot gets strapped
in.

T

AFAIK, all IS28b2 Twin Larks have both a CG and nose hook.

At 14:30 20 June 2012, Hartley Falbaum wrote:
It has not been mentioned (yet), but did the Lark have a CG hook, or a
nose hook?
Things can get out of hand quickly with a CG hook if attention is
diverted.


Based on Serial #71, formerly in use here in WI, the IS28B2 Lark ex-factory
standard equipment included both hooks.


Judy

Ramy

Lark manual with scratched in hard to read W&B numbers for that particular ship:http://www.clubplaneadoresbari.com.a...ark_Manual.pdf

Seems to me that a tail dolly heavy enough to put it out of the aft limit would have to be very heavy.

The manual is interesting. P. 7 says the minimum front seat weight is
183 lbs. it also gives 22-47% mac range
The chart on the last page--an obvious reference if you're taking
light passengers in the front seat -- says 90 lbs in the front seat is
ok
The calculation on the second to last page says 183 in the front seat
is fine at 37%, and 121 in each seat is fine at 39%
Why is the placard 183 lbs then?
Somebody who knows how much a lark dolly weighs could certainly tell
us minimum front seat weight with dolly on given this chart
I surely hope we're not replaying this one
http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/br...20001208X06614

John Cochrane

On Jun 20, 10:36*am, John Cochrane
wrote:
Ramy

Lark manual with scratched in hard to read W&B numbers for that particular ship:http://www.clubplaneadoresbari.com.a...ark_Manual.pdf

Seems to me that a tail dolly heavy enough to put it out of the aft limit would have to be very heavy.

The manual is interesting. P. 7 says the minimum front seat weight is
183 lbs. it also gives 22-47% mac range
The chart on the last page--an obvious reference if you're taking
light passengers in the front seat -- says 90 lbs in the front seat is
ok
The calculation on the second to last page says 183 in the front seat
is fine at 37%, and 121 in each seat is fine at 39%
Why is the placard 183 lbs then?
Somebody who knows how much a lark dolly weighs could certainly tell
us minimum front seat weight with dolly on given this chart
I surely hope we're not replaying this onehttp://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20001208X06614

John Cochrane

I hope not as well. Both cockpits are well ahead of the aerodynamic
center so I would expect the CG to be well forward with three souls on
board. I don't think the tail dolly had much effect in this accident
as long as it was not unusually heavy. In fact, it may have prevented
a forward-of-limit CG.

That said, the Twin Lark has some 'interesting' trim/pitch stability
behaviors. At higher speeds, even with negative flaps, the glider
becomes progressively nose heavy requiring significant aft stick
pressure to prevent a steeper dive. If re-trimmed for the higher
speed, slowing down causes increasing tail heaviness. This indicates
that pitch stability becomes divergent under normal flight conditions
which is not what I would expect from a standard category glider.

Bill D - former Lark owner.