Maiden flight of the Arcus

I wonder how many clubs have BOTH an ASK-21 and a Duo Discus/DG1000/505?
Obviously Schleicher have their reasons -but you'd think there was (would
have been?) a market for a 20m two seater to sit betweenthe k-21 and
ash25/30.
Obviously schempp-hirth think there's a market for 2 20m ships in their
line up

On Tue, 14 Apr 2009 17:30:04 +0000, Nick Olson wrote:

I wonder how many clubs have BOTH an ASK-21 and a Duo Discus/DG1000/505?

The Scottish Gliding Union at Portmoak for one - 2 x ASK21 and a DG-505.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Andreas Maurer wrote:

outside Germany - but there are very, very few clubs in Europe who are
replacing their aging ASK-13s with something different than an ASK-21.

Maybe, but the main reason for this is brain inertia.

And, unlike
the ASK-21, they spin like real gliders.

... which still is, inmy opinion, something that makes it unsuitable
as a first solo gider.

But they were happy with the 13? Can I see some contradiction?

Personally, I think the DG 1000 makes a *great* primary trainer. And
hold your breath: We even do primary training in the 20m-configuration!
And of course we spin it before the first solo.

For primary aerobatics training however, the ASK is better, because it's
less slippery. But who can afford a whole two seater just for primary
aerobatics trainig?

On Thu, 16 Apr 2009 09:57:47 +0200, John Smith
wrote:


outside Germany - but there are very, very few clubs in Europe who are
replacing their aging ASK-13s with something different than an ASK-21.

Maybe, but the main reason for this is brain inertia.


The main reason is not brain inertia - the main reason is that an
ASK-21 has proven for decades to be an excellent basic trainer.


... which still is, inmy opinion, something that makes it unsuitable
as a first solo gider.

But they were happy with the 13? Can I see some contradiction?

The 13 was the best basic trainer of its generation... despite its
ability to spin. In my opinion the inability to spin an ASK-21 removes
a major danger for student pilots (although soin training is still
necessary).


Personally, I think the DG 1000 makes a *great* primary trainer. And
hold your breath: We even do primary training in the 20m-configuration!
And of course we spin it before the first solo.

Well... first of all, the DG-1000 is a lot more expensive than an
ASK-21. Second, in Europe the basic trainer is usually used all the
time by student pilots... and these don'*t need the better L/D of a
DG-1000. Most clubs offer a 20m double seater these days anyway.


For primary aerobatics training however, the ASK is better, because it's
less slippery. But who can afford a whole two seater just for primary
aerobatics trainig?

Only very few clubs use their 21s for aerobatic training.

On Apr 15, 3:30*am, Nick Olson wrote:
*I wonder how many clubs have BOTH an ASK-21 and a Duo Discus/DG1000/505?
Obviously Schleicher have their reasons -but you'd think there was (would
have been?) a market for a 20m two seater to sit betweenthe k-21 and
ash25/30.
Obviously schempp-hirth think there's a market for 2 20m ships in their
line up *

Southern Cross Gliding Club in Sydney has both a K21 and A DG1000S. We
bought the 21 after the 1000.

My club still uses K13s for most of the basic training, because it is still
the best all round trainer. It will drop wings and spin if you stall it,
just like many single seaters that students will fly later on in their
gliding careers.

The fact that a K21 won't spin makes it unsuitable as a basic trainer
IMHO. Most of the clubs that use them usually have a K13 or a Puchacz
tucked away somewhere for spin training. If you teach people to fly in
trainers that are highly spin resistant, you are just storing up problems
for the future.

We also have a couple of DG1000s which are lovely to fly, have good
performance and will do everything that the training manual requires. BUT
they are very difficult to get in and out of without a step ladder, have a
very complicated ballasting system, and spin rather too well, losing height
like a piano falling off a roof. I wouldn't fancy my chances of recovering
from a spin at circuit height in one without hitting the deck. Generally
you need a high aerotow for the spinning exercises in the DG, whereas you
can do them off a winch launch in the K13 .

Derek Copeland


At 09:40 14 April 2009, Andreas Maurer wrote:
On Mon, 13 Apr 2009 18:44:20 -0700 (PDT), Bruce Hoult
wrote:


Are they still?

Yes.
Typically "exotic" gliders tend to be sold in significant numbers
outside Germany - but there are very, very few clubs in Europe who are
replacing their aging ASK-13s with something different than an ASK-21.

And, unlike
the ASK-21, they spin like real gliders.

.... which still is, inmy opinion, something that makes it unsuitable
as a first solo gider.


We've had two season's of students now do their first solos in the
DG1000's. I believe everyone is very happy and they are everything we
hoped for.

Great!

On Apr 17, 12:09*pm, Andreas Maurer wrote:
Well... first of all, the DG-1000 is a lot more expensive than an ASK-21.

No it isn't.

A quick google shows the ASK21 around 64,100 EUR. I couldn't
immediately find a current price for the DG1000 Club, but ours were
somewhere around 70k EUR.

On Fri, 17 Apr 2009 03:52:50 -0700 (PDT), Bruce Hoult
wrote:

On Apr 17, 12:09*pm, Andreas Maurer wrote:
Well... first of all, the DG-1000 is a lot more expensive than an ASK-21.

No it isn't.

A quick google shows the ASK21 around 64,100 EUR. I couldn't
immediately find a current price for the DG1000 Club, but ours were
somewhere around 70k EUR.

That's extremel cheap - the numbers I had for the DG-1000 are a quite
different.

Bye
Andreas

The 13 was the best basic trainer of its generation... despite its
ability to spin. In my opinion the inability to spin an ASK-21 removes
a major danger for student pilots (although soin training is still
necessary).

Oddly, our club (St Louis Soaring Association) has a sweet little
K-13, bought new way back when, that is placarded "INTENTIONAL SPINS
PROHIBITED" - and that limit is specifically stated in the original
FAA airworthiness certificate (despite no prohibitions on spinning in
the flight manual).

Good thing K-13s can't read english...

Kirk
66

On Apr 18, 1:44*am, Andreas Maurer wrote:
On Fri, 17 Apr 2009 03:52:50 -0700 (PDT), Bruce Hoult

wrote:
On Apr 17, 12:09*pm, Andreas Maurer wrote:
Well... first of all, the DG-1000 is a lot more expensive than an ASK-21.

No it isn't.

A quick google shows the ASK21 around 64,100 EUR. *I couldn't
immediately find a current price for the DG1000 Club, but ours were
somewhere around 70k EUR.

That's extremel cheap - the numbers I had for the DG-1000 are a quite
different.

Don't forget that there are several different models of DG1000. The
"club" is a lot cheaper than the "s". Of course it is also missing 2m
of wing, retractable undercarriage (but also no stepladder needed),
water and no doubt a few other things I can't think of right now.