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The Apology



 
 
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  #161  
Old November 2nd 20, 03:11 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
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On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 8:39:29 AM UTC-7, Kimmine and Mitch Hudson wrote:
Looks like it’s time for another review. This time, however let’s look at the good in the world first, followed by the obvious minority in order to have a more comprehensive overview. I would like to show that, like anything else in society, the good will most always outweigh the bad, though will not always be the least noisy. Hang in there, ladies!

I’m sorry I don’t have time to track down who all the good folks are, and I realize many of you repeatedly posted many more positive things than what I am recapping, I just want to show the sheer numbers here. Also to the good folks, I apologize for not giving you proper credit. However, believe me, most everyone appreciates it.

-Mitch Hudson, Erie, Colorado

THE GOOD


“The complaint, which sadly required the explaination for this old guy see the harm in what seemed harmless, seems a valid, constructive suggestion for improvement. We definitely want more women pilots and being tone deaf in this area is not helping this end. Your proposed question seems counterproductive.”

, Oct 20, 2020, 4:38:02 PM*

“Whoa - I think some people need to take a deep breath and do some research. Some of the women who wrote in have been contributing to SSA in a big way for years. Not to mention that the current Chair of the SSA is a woman.

I believe the proper response is to understand why someone was offended and determine how to prevent it in the future. We don't get to determine is someone should be offended. Our job is to respect their feelings. And, if the Editor and the Chair of the SSF think they needed to apologize, I'll take their lead.”

-MNLou, Oct 20, 2020, 5:49:32 PM*


“Agreed that this old stuff happened in the mainstream in the 40's and best water under the bridge today, even if bad by today's standards. Wanting to stir up bad feelings because of it not productive.

The complaint seems about the same stuff unfortunately happening today.”
, Oct 20, 2020, 6:54:06 PM*

“The most telling aspect of this thread is that almost all the respondents are men, and almost all the men seem completely blank ("without empathy") regarding how this ad could feel demeaning to a woman. This cluelessness is, I think, the main point for many women.”

-danlj, Oct 20, 2020, 10:43:57 PM

“The nearly universal response by the men on this thread is a perfect illustration of how far we have to go. Has political correctness gone too far? In some cases, yes. But those of us in the majority (and in soaring, men by far outnumber women) need to put a little effort into trying to understand why some of those in the minority might be offended by ads like this, not criticize and further insult them.”

-Chip Bearden, Boonton Township, NJ, Oct 21, 2020, 7:06:44 PM


“Let me see if I can understand how this ad could have been interpreted by the women who complained. The background poster looks like something from the 50's, the glorious time for men, when women were second class citizens. The questions being asked by the women "What? No engine? But how?" imply that she's just another dumb blonde, who cannot possibly understand the technical intricacies of motorless flight. Contrast that with the male pilot, whose head gear alone tells us all we need to know about his piloting skills and expertise in flight mechanics. The caption "Beginning brilliant new love story - Swept Off Her Feet" could imply that there's no point in trying to explain all these intricacies to a women because that would distract her from her main purpose which she can only find in the bedroom and in the kitchen.
With this in mind, I fully agree with Chip and I totally understand and support Linda.”
, Oct 23, 2020, 2:35:00 PM*

“I'd like to nominate Gregg Ballou for the RAS Phyllis Shapley award.
Only stay at home mothers are honest women and the rest are childless corporate whores. Wow! what group do women running glider ports fall into?"
, Oct 23, 2020, 8:19:37 PM

“Ya know, I think every time I have brought up the soaring community I have had nothing but good things to say, after reading a disgusting thread like this, I wish I never clicked the link to this post.

Grow up boys, and remember who brought home first place at worlds this year.”

-Collin Shea, Ft. Worth, TX, Oct 23, 2020, 9:11:12 PM

“I'm sorry that women expressing their displeasure with an advertisement and then being taken seriously is such a threat to your way of life that you would continue to refer to them as "nazis".

Now, have you ever considered that the WSPA exists because of the fact that there are people in this world who find their way of life threatened over something as simple as women being taken seriously when they voice a complaint? So seriously in fact that they will invent incendiary terms relating them Nazi's and Fascists?

Probably not. Because you are used to being taken seriously when you complain about things.”

-Hugh Grandstaff, Huntsville, Alabama, Oct 24, 2020, 3:51:31 PM

“What a really sad state of affairs that most of the posters in this thread show absolutely no evidence of empathy (i.e. the capacity to see things through other's eyes) wrt the complainers. Very disappointing to me.. The ad was bad enough in that it pours salt on open wounds, the "mansplaining" of the posters is off the wall.”

-John Godfrey, Chapel Hill, North Carolina, Oct 24, 2020, 6:48:34 PM

“This picture is the earliest picture I can find of the gang of girls, 1939 Wiesbaden. Hard to imagine just a generation later, but the women in the picture had to fight for the vote, equal pay, and other important human rights. However I always wondered what they were thinking when they quietly endured face to face discrimination. One day I asked the woman on the far left and she said: “living well is my best revenge.”

-xcnick, Oct 25, 2020, 4:40:46 AM

“The ad could best described as tone deaf. That was obviously not the intent, but it was the result. Male chauvinism is often subtle, and men are not particularly skilled in recognizing its presence. Pointing out chauvinistic behavior is the role of women, and that is what happened here. I say bravo! for them and shame on their detractors.”

, Oct 26, 2020, 12:24:34 AM

“Most of the women that I have met in soaring were involved with WSPA. They've all come away with positive experiences, whether they were pre-solo or well into cross-country, contests and badges. My own daughter just turned 13 and is taking lessons. We signed her up as a member of WSPA a couple months ago and I'll be making a donation in honor of this thread to help support the next generation of "childless corporate whores" as you call them. There's a good chance a young woman that started out at the local gliderport, fostered by a WSPA seminar or scholarship could be that Captain on your next airline flight, defending our country over the skies of a foreign country or possibly the next person on the Moon or the first person on Mars. That's pretty f*#@ing awesome.”

-Mike Westbrook, Mansfield, Texas, Oct 26, 2020, 9:12:53 AM

“I too am married to a female glider pilot. Leah is also a "Childless Corporate Whore" and WSPA member (former board member). She benefitted immensely in her early flying career by attending a seminar at Air Saililng. I didn't ask her how she felt about the ad. Her feelings about the ad do not change the fact that many people who wrote in to Soaring did not appreciate it. I thought SSA & SSF did a very good job of addressing the problem.. I hope that the letter writers feel the same way.

I hope that WSPA is selling "Childless Corporate Whore" T-shirts soon. That's gold.

RAS holds a special place in my heart as it was my primary outlet for soaring reporting and information during my early days as a glider pilot. Many long time contributors probably are happy that I've moved on LOL. Every now and then there's a nasty thread like this that makes me sad. Remember folks. If you can't say something nice don't say anything at all. It's not that hard. Be Nice.”

-Tony Condon, Wichita, Kansas, Oct 26, 2020, 2:17:33 PM

"Pointing out the obvious shortcomings of a not-so-subtle diminishing of women's place in our sport is not an assault of freedom or a liberal conspiracy to "cancel" men, a "PC takeover" by overly sensitive snowflakes, or anything of the sort. It's simply pointing out that these sorts of obvious to some but (apparently) oblivious to others slights get noticed and cumulatively diminish the enjoyment of those women who do participate in soaring. These representations also erode the propensity to join of 50% of the population who might consider our sport. That's hardly a group we should be writing off - their participation rate is tragically small as it stands.”

-Andy Blackburn, San Carlos, California, Oct 26, 2020, 5:10:07 PM

“The original ad was an unfortunate mis-step. I am proud of how swiftly and respectfully the SSA and SSF handled the situation.
Some of the posts in this thread however are absolutely inappropriate. The dis-service done to our community as a whole by those posts are far more damaging than the original error to which good faith efforts are being made to rectify, learn, and move forward.
I am extremely glad there are people here willing to call out these action and those that made them. I hope this will stand as a record and push people towards the reality that all of us in some aspect or another would do well to open our minds and be willing to listen to one another. And that we will not stand for this kind of behavior in our community.

If you have a problem with the SSA and SSF's decision to fix a true mistake and include a group of our soaring family that deserves every ounce of respect as anyone else, I would beg you to take some time away from the keyboard to really reflect on what you are advocating for here. There is no plot or organized attack going on.. there is nothing to lose and only positive change to gain by the apology that sparked this thread. None of us want to admit that we may have improper visions of what's going on. But if culture is going to advance in a positive way then individuals must also change.. and that is quite often the hardest part.”

-Freddie, Ft. Worth, Texas, Oct 27, 2020, 4:22:33 PM

“I concur with Chip and Andy - well said”

-Mike Brooks, Houston, Texas, Oct 27, 2020, 5:54:10 PM

“I just spent more than an hour reading through this thread and I just want to add a couple of observations.

I can understand why the ad was offensive to some women. It's really a no brainer if you put yourself in their shoes.”

, Oct 28, 2020, 2:01:13 PM

“Then an unexpected thing happened. Out of a turd sprouted a beautiful and vibrant flower of moral enlightenment. I'm surprised and encouraged by the massing of intelligent, articulate, and sustained opposition to the chauvinistic sentiments that initially propelled this thread. Yes - call a spade a spade. Hold bigots accountable for their bigotry and don't let them gaslight reality when they get pushback. If this could happen more consistently on RAS, it would be a better place to visit, and the dinosaurs will eventually go extinct.”

-biff the dotard, Oct 28, 2020, 10:31:34 PM

THE BAD (AND UGLY)


"Mitch objected to the term Feminatzi, when that term was explained both have not commented. I have no problem defending this hill, as stated before, I have no apologies."
-Bob Youngblood, Vero Beach, Florida, 27 October, 2020, 6:37

"Yet she was the Feminazi that came to the office most every day with her very revealing tits exposing in a n extremely revealing top, I could not help just taking a look at those puppies from time to time. In your eyes I guess that made me a sexist.
-Bob Youngblood, Vero Beach, Florida, October 27th, 2020, 2:43PM

"Mark, you make a great point , the apology should be from these Feminazi organizers whose mission was only to create conflict. This Femitifa approach should not be tolerated, solution, defund the WSPA as part or association with the SSA. "
-Bob Youngblood, Vero Beach, Florida, Oct 20, 2020, 12:03:12

"The complaints and the sniveling apologies are appalling. And the woman in the ad would be more attractive if she had kept her mouth shut."
-Greg Ballou, Elmwood, Massachusetts, Oct 21, 2020, 12:49:44

"Poor women, women have lost a lot since the 1950's if you think being a childless corporate whore is better than being a stay at home mother you need to talk to some honest women.
-Greg Ballou, Elmwood, Massachusetts, Oct 23, 2020, 4:24:47

“A few, or one, women should not be allowed to speak for ALL women. A quarter-page ad was addressed with a FULL PAGE apology, totally out of proportion with the "crime." I, for one, object to being called a "pig," but am not expecting an apology.”

-Tom Seim, Richland, Washington, Oct 28, 2020, 6:26:00 PM

“So feel free to apologize for yourself, but not for me.”

-Dan Marotta, Moriarty, New Mexico, Oct 20, 2020, 6:09:17 PM*


Perhaps you can explain to me why it is acceptable to you to call men "pigs.."

Tom
  #162  
Old November 2nd 20, 04:31 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Kenn Sebesta
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I can't help but be saddened by this thread. RAS has developed a reputation for general toxicity, and this outdated masculine toxicity on display furthers the impression.

It is extremely disturbing that B. Youngblood is exposing the next generation of glider pilots to this attitude. The program directors at his club might want to sit him down for a real-life intervention,*so that he can understand how extremely harmful this is to the future of our sport. Certainly donating time, energy, and money counts for something, but it smacks of a Harvey Weinstein defense to say that these past contributions justify the ongoing damage.

Excellent points have been made by so many other posters, and I don't want to repeat them in detail. One sticks out, however, and that's, "As a pilot, always being willing to learn something is paramont[sic] to safety, no matter what your experience." Truer words have not been spoken.*

Consider what it means to be flying in the vicinity*of someone who is so hidebound on not progressing and so stubborn in their world-view. The reckless attitude toward others we are witnessing here on the ground is certainly the same attitude carried into the air. In an emergency, will these pilots second-guess a woman? In an ADM capacity, will they disregard safety advice if it's not delivered by an older white male? If they physically hurt someone through their ignorance, will they take any more responsibility for it than they are for the emotional pain they are causing here and now?

If you are in a club with any of these men, please reach out to your club officers and fellow members so that you can stage interventions-- sometimes it's only in person that*aggressors can understand how badly they've hurt others. It is crucially important that we come together as a community to stamp this out before it does any more*harm. It's far more widespread than I think any of us realized. I hope the SSA can work with the WSAP to devote future articles to tackling this subject head-on.

A big shout-out to those who have consistently and eloquently pressed the point that accidental and intentional degradation of women is wholly unacceptable. Keep up the good fight.
  #163  
Old November 2nd 20, 09:30 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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On Sunday, November 1, 2020 at 10:31:14 PM UTC-5, Kenn Sebesta wrote:
I can't help but be saddened by this thread. RAS has developed a reputation for general toxicity, and this outdated masculine toxicity on display furthers the impression.

It is extremely disturbing that B. Youngblood is exposing the next generation of glider pilots to this attitude. The program directors at his club might want to sit him down for a real-life intervention, so that he can understand how extremely harmful this is to the future of our sport. Certainly donating time, energy, and money counts for something, but it smacks of a Harvey Weinstein defense to say that these past contributions justify the ongoing damage.

Excellent points have been made by so many other posters, and I don't want to repeat them in detail. One sticks out, however, and that's, "As a pilot, always being willing to learn something is paramont[sic] to safety, no matter what your experience." Truer words have not been spoken.

Consider what it means to be flying in the vicinity of someone who is so hidebound on not progressing and so stubborn in their world-view. The reckless attitude toward others we are witnessing here on the ground is certainly the same attitude carried into the air. In an emergency, will these pilots second-guess a woman? In an ADM capacity, will they disregard safety advice if it's not delivered by an older white male? If they physically hurt someone through their ignorance, will they take any more responsibility for it than they are for the emotional pain they are causing here and now?

If you are in a club with any of these men, please reach out to your club officers and fellow members so that you can stage interventions-- sometimes it's only in person that aggressors can understand how badly they've hurt others. It is crucially important that we come together as a community to stamp this out before it does any more harm. It's far more widespread than I think any of us realized. I hope the SSA can work with the WSAP to devote future articles to tackling this subject head-on.

A big shout-out to those who have consistently and eloquently pressed the point that accidental and intentional degradation of women is wholly unacceptable. Keep up the good fight.

Kenn, it would be my pleasure to have you to represent the soaring community for your much wanted intervention. Opportunities like this present themselves too infrequently, only then can you get someone to open their ears, and shut their mouth. Enlightening the most intelligent and delusional can be accomplished, I promise to fulfill that opportunity. As you made reference to the post that you were always willing to learn , you will not be disappointed.
Please book the flight ASAP, I will pay for the trip down. Bob
  #164  
Old November 2nd 20, 11:32 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Dezzutti[_4_]
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BOB PLEASE JUSt STOP

  #165  
Old November 2nd 20, 01:35 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Gregg Ballou[_2_]
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On Sunday, November 1, 2020 at 10:31:14 PM UTC-5, Kenn Sebesta wrote:
I can't help but be saddened by this thread. RAS has developed a reputation for general toxicity, and this outdated masculine toxicity on display furthers the impression.

It is extremely disturbing that B. Youngblood is exposing the next generation of glider pilots to this attitude. The program directors at his club might want to sit him down for a real-life intervention, so that he can understand how extremely harmful this is to the future of our sport. Certainly donating time, energy, and money counts for something, but it smacks of a Harvey Weinstein defense to say that these past contributions justify the ongoing damage.

Excellent points have been made by so many other posters, and I don't want to repeat them in detail. One sticks out, however, and that's, "As a pilot, always being willing to learn something is paramont[sic] to safety, no matter what your experience." Truer words have not been spoken.

Consider what it means to be flying in the vicinity of someone who is so hidebound on not progressing and so stubborn in their world-view. The reckless attitude toward others we are witnessing here on the ground is certainly the same attitude carried into the air. In an emergency, will these pilots second-guess a woman? In an ADM capacity, will they disregard safety advice if it's not delivered by an older white male? If they physically hurt someone through their ignorance, will they take any more responsibility for it than they are for the emotional pain they are causing here and now?

If you are in a club with any of these men, please reach out to your club officers and fellow members so that you can stage interventions-- sometimes it's only in person that aggressors can understand how badly they've hurt others. It is crucially important that we come together as a community to stamp this out before it does any more harm. It's far more widespread than I think any of us realized. I hope the SSA can work with the WSAP to devote future articles to tackling this subject head-on.

A big shout-out to those who have consistently and eloquently pressed the point that accidental and intentional degradation of women is wholly unacceptable. Keep up the good fight.


Kenn you think disagreeing with some women over the offensiveness of a piece of art is bad ADM. Lolz
  #166  
Old November 2nd 20, 02:49 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Paul B[_2_]
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Mr Sebesta

I feel you should re-read your post to see that your contribution is worse than any other contribution in this thread. It is crafted to inflict maximum possible reputational damage and is largely based on many strawman arguments and replete with fashionable put downs, such as: "and this outdated masculine toxicity", I am sure that may bring few likes on Twitter, but if you wish to be saddened less, do you not think, it would be productive to bring people around by the voracity of your argument, rather than tired cliché?

Do you really think that "the next generation of glider pilots" is not capable of making up their own minds and do not need your intervention to smooth their path through life? How condescending of you to think that you have to do it for them. I also note how careful you are to tie the name of the previous poster to his crime of speaking his mind. Was it to make sure that as many readers as possible will see his crime and think less of him and to maximise his humiliation? I am not sure what he said and I do not care. I and your hypothetical "next generation of glider pilots" are perfectly capable of making up our own minds.

And then you went one better. You have smeared him by associating him with Harvey Weinstein. Well done, I can see that you are truly gifted in bringing "the general toxicity” of RAS down.

And then the strawman argument: Somebody that does not share your views could not be a safe pilot and we should not share the skies with them. Really?

The utter character assassination you have deployed here is contemptable. Statements such as "the reckless attitude toward others on the ground is certainly the same attitude carried into the air." So how exactly do you know that? You are condemning someone on nothing more than your say so. Then you go on "If they physically hurt someone through their ignorance", so now you have escalated to physical harm, without a skerrick of evidence. Yes I can see that you are trying hard to minimise the "toxicity" of RAS.

I was born and lived the first part of my life in a communist country, I found it both astounding and utterly frightening how well you have mastered their language, eg:
“someone who is so hidebound on not progressing and so stubborn in their world-view” might have progressed to :should be moved to a re-education camp, to realise what his world view should be.
“please reach out to your club officers and fellow members so that you can stage interventions” and “come together as a community to stamp this out before it does any more harm”. Well we used to have committees in large dwellings that would do precisely that. Often on nothing more than a suspicion or a deliberate report by someone who did not like you. In my opinion, that is precisely what you are attempting to do.

So to summarise, in my judgement, you are a contemptible person who enjoys hurting others in order to make himself feel morally superior.

Paul Bart



On Monday, 2 November 2020 at 1:31:14 pm UTC+10, Kenn Sebesta wrote:
I can't help but be saddened by this thread. RAS has developed a reputation for general toxicity, and this outdated masculine toxicity on display furthers the impression.

It is extremely disturbing that B. Youngblood is exposing the next generation of glider pilots to this attitude. The program directors at his club might want to sit him down for a real-life intervention, so that he can understand how extremely harmful this is to the future of our sport. Certainly donating time, energy, and money counts for something, but it smacks of a Harvey Weinstein defense to say that these past contributions justify the ongoing damage.

Excellent points have been made by so many other posters, and I don't want to repeat them in detail. One sticks out, however, and that's, "As a pilot, always being willing to learn something is paramont[sic] to safety, no matter what your experience." Truer words have not been spoken.

Consider what it means to be flying in the vicinity of someone who is so hidebound on not progressing and so stubborn in their world-view. The reckless attitude toward others we are witnessing here on the ground is certainly the same attitude carried into the air. In an emergency, will these pilots second-guess a woman? In an ADM capacity, will they disregard safety advice if it's not delivered by an older white male? If they physically hurt someone through their ignorance, will they take any more responsibility for it than they are for the emotional pain they are causing here and now?

If you are in a club with any of these men, please reach out to your club officers and fellow members so that you can stage interventions-- sometimes it's only in person that aggressors can understand how badly they've hurt others. It is crucially important that we come together as a community to stamp this out before it does any more harm. It's far more widespread than I think any of us realized. I hope the SSA can work with the WSAP to devote future articles to tackling this subject head-on.

A big shout-out to those who have consistently and eloquently pressed the point that accidental and intentional degradation of women is wholly unacceptable. Keep up the good fight.

  #167  
Old November 2nd 20, 03:37 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Kenn Sebesta
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Mr. Bart--

I spent a fair amount of my life in a post-communist country, I have seen some of what you talk about.*Sighetu Marmației was a terrible place. However, I've also seen how chauvinistic Eastern Europe still is, and the challenges my female friends had to advance their careers in that corrosive atmosphere.

So if the hill anyone wants to die on is littered with "feminazi", "whore", and commands for women to "keep their mouth shut", then I am afraid the reputation damage is purely self-inflicted.

And if we're equating political dissidents being murdered in places like Sighet Prison with club members respectfully sitting a pilot down and saying "let's talk about your impact on women", I don't know there's a lot I have to say to that.*

There are two ways these old stereotypes change: the sad way, one lonely funeral at a time (as another poster pointed out). Or the happy way, by finding a path so that a lifetime of wisdom isn't spoiled by being unable to evolve with the times.
  #168  
Old November 2nd 20, 03:56 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Kenn Sebesta
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Kenn, it would be my pleasure to have you to represent the soaring community... book the flight ASAP, I will pay for the trip down.

Bob--

I really appreciate the offer. I admire that you don't hesitate to donate money and time to the gliding community.

Could I make a counter-proposal to send someone else in my stead? There are pilots who have been working on these issues for a long time, and they will be better, more eloquent advocates.
  #169  
Old November 2nd 20, 04:04 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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On Monday, October 19, 2020 at 6:11:19 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Recently there was an apology issued from the SSA and the SSF and Editor for a so called offensive interpretation of the depiction of a historical portrayal of a young lady and a glider pilot on a previous edition of Soaring magazine. After reading the complaints from the women associated with the WSPA I decided it is now time to voice the other side of the story.
That depiction reminded me of the 1970's when I met my wife at the Kendall Gliderport in Miami . I was flying my Std. Cirrus and she was a student pilot for gliders. So to say that that depiction was sexist is completely ridiculous. The SSA should have never apologized because of an orchestrated attack on the publication , Editor, and the SSF.
The complainants are without merit, totally offbase and have a directive in place that only undermines the overall objective of the SSA, SSF, and Editor. You would think that this bunch of misfits, have no understanding of how this is an inclusive activity and not directed by any one gender.
Ladies, listen up, much has been done by the SSA and others to support women in the sport of flying gliders. Let me take a moment and share a story with you about compassion and inclusion.
During the past year we has a lady member whom became sick from a serious stage of cancer, a few of us at our club took notice and understood the severity of the situation and made it possible for this lady to achieve her goal of becoming a CFIG. We made sure that this was done at no cost, and guess what, she completed her CFIG even while on chemotherapy.
Sorry that you think the SSA must apologize for your mis-interpretation and misguided effort . I think that the lack of cognizance is appalling. Bob Youngblood

At this time I would like to request that there NO further post to this thread. We have all made our points, expressed our perceptions and personal attacks. I do not look at this as a winning or losing debate and at times I saw unfortunate post from people whom I have a lot of respect for, I hope they feel the same about me.
May I ask each one of you to throw the pen and paper down take a deep breathe say to ourselves that we have something in common. Enjoy your life, continue the wonderful adventure of sailplane flying and most of all stay healthy. My final words on this subject. If you wish to opine do so privately. Bob Youngblood, Vero Beach, Florida.
  #170  
Old November 6th 20, 05:38 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Chip Bearden[_2_]
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(BUMP)

Sorry, I couldn't help myself. Just before I posted, this deplorable thread was roughly 30 views (out of 6500) from moving into 6th place on the most-viewed-discussions-on-RAS rankings for 2020! As the U.S. presidential election just demonstrated, every vote (view) counts. And unlike that election, we can keep voting as many times as we want.

Tantalyzingly, it's only a few hundred views away from Top 5 status. So keep clicking.

Chip Bearden
JB
 




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