North-Up versus Direction-Up?

real pilots fly north up.
it's a left brain/right brain thing.
you are the variable, north is a constant, so why orientate to a
variable?
go on then - bring out your feminine side if you must, fly track or course
up.

;-] bill




At 14:18 17 December 2008, kirk.stant wrote:
Heading (Nose) up while flying - allows orientation with real world
(really important when winds are strong!). But this requires a good
Track display on the map; I have a nice track line on my mSeeYou map
that I can use to see how my wind corrected track compares with my
desired course line. I just adjust my heading to make sure my actual
track is taking me to the next turnpoint to avoid "homing". Also
matches the map on my SN10.

North up when creating a task - somewhat easier to see "big picture",
but not useful when actually flying, IMO (other than possibly when
thermalling - tried it but still prefer Heading up).

Kirk
66

real pilots fly north up.
it's a left brain/right brian thing.
your heading is a variable, north is a constant, so why try to orientate
to a variable?
go on then, bring out your feminine side, fly course/track up!

bill ;-]


At 14:18 17 December 2008, kirk.stant wrote:
Heading (Nose) up while flying - allows orientation with real world
(really important when winds are strong!). But this requires a good
Track display on the map; I have a nice track line on my mSeeYou map
that I can use to see how my wind corrected track compares with my
desired course line. I just adjust my heading to make sure my actual
track is taking me to the next turnpoint to avoid "homing". Also
matches the map on my SN10.

North up when creating a task - somewhat easier to see "big picture",
but not useful when actually flying, IMO (other than possibly when
thermalling - tried it but still prefer Heading up).

Kirk
66

real pilots fly north up.
it's a left brain/right brian thing.
your heading is a variable, north is a constant, so why try to orientate
to a variable?
go on then, bring out your feminine side, fly course/track up!

bill ;-]


At 14:18 17 December 2008, kirk.stant wrote:
Heading (Nose) up while flying - allows orientation with real world
(really important when winds are strong!). But this requires a good
Track display on the map; I have a nice track line on my mSeeYou map
that I can use to see how my wind corrected track compares with my
desired course line. I just adjust my heading to make sure my actual
track is taking me to the next turnpoint to avoid "homing". Also
matches the map on my SN10.

North up when creating a task - somewhat easier to see "big picture",
but not useful when actually flying, IMO (other than possibly when
thermalling - tried it but still prefer Heading up).

Kirk
66

"Bill Bullimore" wrote in message
...
real pilots fly north up.
it's a left brain/right brian thing.
your heading is a variable, north is a constant, so why try to orientate
to a variable?
go on then, bring out your feminine side, fly course/track up!

bill ;-]

I strongly disagree with the "real pilot" comment and mescaline/feminine
argument.

Back in the years when I flew A-3 Skywarriors and A-6 Intruders we prepared
strip charts for our low level flights. These charts were "accordion
folded" and orientated "course up." Using this format minimized the size of
the charts. It also aided in correlating items on the chart with what you
see out of the canopy or on the radar. I believe these same advantages
apply to the small PDA display.

I have never considered setting my PDA/GPS for anything except track/task
up.

Wayne
HP-14 "6F"
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder

On Dec 16, 7:09*pm, ContestID67 wrote:

Anyway, I wondered what others use relative to the type of soaring
they do.


Track up. Thermal soaring. I don't use the nav display to predict the
heading to leave a thermal, I'm looking outside.

I might use "heading up" if it was an option but it is not on my
system.

I always use track up on my Garmin 396 for flying but sometimes use
North up for driving.

Many transport aircraft with glass displays have the option of heading
or track up for the nav display but only provide North up for the
display typically used for flight planning.


Andy

Hi John,

I talk to a lot of U.S. glider pilots about soaring software. Most
(including myself) seem to prefer track up when cruising and North up when
circling. I like the map to correspond to what I see out the window while
cruising. However, while thermalling I like the map position fixed rather
than rotating. I like that SeeYou Mobile and other software programs can
make the switch automatically.

Good Soaring,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
http://www.cumulus-soaring.com

"ContestID67" wrote in message
...
It is winter here and the only soaring we are doing in Chicago is in
the hangar . During an energetic discussion on the pros and cons of
various soaring programs, I mentioned I fly "Direction-Up", rather
than "North-Up".

WHOA! You would have thought that I had said I was going to give up
soaring to fly helicopters by the dirty looks that I received.

Now, to be fair, with every GPS device I use (car, boat, GA), I
*ALWAYS* orient the map as north-up, and prefer it overall...except,
that is, when soaring. I started using north-up at first, but soon
found that a direction-up display was much better in letting me
anticipate the timing of rolling out of a thermal and heading towards
the next turn point. Attempting to coordinate the rotating glider
icon on a stationary north-up map, with the view outside and/or
compass, all while centering a thermal, is a bit like patting my head
and rubbing my stomach at the same time. Maybe this is unique to a
thermal-only soaring climate. NOTE: I am not directionally
challanged.

Anyway, I wondered what others use relative to the type of soaring
they do.

Thanks, John

On Dec 17, 9:45*am, Bill Bullimore
wrote:
real pilots fly north up.
it's a left brain/right brian thing.
your heading is a variable, north is a constant, so why try to orientate
to a variable?
go on then, bring out your feminine side, fly course/track up!

bill ;-]

Really? Yeah, I guess all those military aviators aren't real pilots
- what a bunch of wussies.

Actually, real pilots fly grid north. With a sextant...

Kirk
BTDT

On Dec 17, 9:56*am, "kirk.stant" wrote:

Really? *Yeah, I guess all those military aviators aren't real pilots
- what a bunch of wussies.


It's been a long time since I worked on the development of Tornado nav/
attack system but my recollection is the pilot's map display had the
option to select North up. The back seat display was a combined radar/
map so little value in overlaying a North up map on the radar scope.

Ah those we the days - film strips, synchros, and stepper motors!
Something you could see working.

Andy

On Dec 17, 10:40 am, "Paul Remde" wrote:
Hi John,

I talk to a lot of U.S. glider pilots about soaring software. Most
(including myself) seem to prefer track up when cruising and North up when
circling. I like the map to correspond to what I see out the window while
cruising. However, while thermalling I like the map position fixed rather
than rotating. I like that SeeYou Mobile and other software programs can
make the switch automatically.


Paul,

I can only imagine how many times a day you talk to pilots about
soaring software! That being said, it seems that most people that
have responded to this thread, save yourself and those you speak for,
are using track/nose up. Hmmmm.

When I argue this point I talk about reducing the complexity of
routine flying activities so that I can concentrate and optimize those
actions that are really important. Driving is like that. After years
of practice, you no longer actively think about most routine driving
actions, which leaves you to actively think about the critical
aspects. After a while you instinctively knew that that car up ahead
is going to cut you off by some suptle indication which you are
probably unaware of, and you find yourself taking evasive action
without even thinking. If you have ever trained a teenager to drive,
you will remember their concentration on the really small things
("Dad, which peddle does what?") and forget about the REALLY important
things (like staying in their lane! Yikes!). Do you actively think
about the ruddle pedals and the stick when you fly anymore? I doubt
it. But I digress.

So picture yourself thermalling. Ahhhh. Of course optimizing the
thermal is critical to our sport. But there are other constants like
avoiding ships in the gaggle, maintaining coordinated flight, playing
what-ifs on the task, and...navigating...these are all secondary to
staying aloft. If I can simplify one task, I can concentrate more
fully on others. Great soaring pilots do nearly everything so second
nature that thermalling is now a secondary task and their mind can now
concentrate on even higher level issues like tactics.

OK, lets think about using north-up. My mind would be saying
something like, "I am pointing south-east because the compass says so
(or the glider icon) and I want to roll out north. Now, which
direction am I thermalling? Are there 90 degress or 270 degrees to
go? Ok, 270 degrees away, I should be there in 15 seconds. Wait, I
just went into sink, let's change that bank angle. Where was north
again? Darn, in the Midwest every direction looks identical! Oops,
I missed my exit point. I'll have to take one more circle at the top
of this thermal in weak lift. Didn't Moffat say that was a no-no?
Now, why ARE those other pilots leaving this thermal so soon?"

Now, let's review thermalling with track-up. My navigation brain mind
is saying, "I glanced at my PDA and that BIG BLACK LINE is rotating
towards me (or away from me). When it is within about 10 degrees,
I'll start rolling out and speed up. Glance again. Here the line
comes and here I go. Now, what ARE those other pilots doing sticking
around?" I would contend that this is the simpler approach and
removes a navigational complexity so that I can concentrate on the
more critical constrains of soaring...like staying aloft.

So, the bottom line is that you will probably continue to do whatever
is most comfortable for yourself. But maybe next time my words will
come back to you and you might try flying heading-up. Who knows.
Come on SPRING! My $0.02.

- John DeRosa

Bill Bullimore wrote:
real pilots fly north up.

Years ago, I remember Karl Streidieck telling me how he oriented his
paper map so the course was "up". I tried that but it was too hard to
keep turning the map in the glider; later, I realized he might have been
talking about flying on the ridges, where you wouldn't have to keep
adjusting the map orientation. I don't know what he does now, I assume
he's still a real pilot.

it's a left brain/right brain thing.

Huh?

you are the variable, north is a constant, so why orientate to a
variable?

Nonsense, I'm the constant (I'm always in the same place, right behind
my nose), and the nose of my glider is a constant - it's always in front
of me (barring very unfortunate events). On the other hand, North is
always changing: sometimes it's on the left, sometimes on the right,
ahead, behind. You don't notice that?

go on then - bring out your feminine side if you must, fly track or course
up.

With track up, I use most of the rather small PDA screen to show me what
there is in the direction I'm going. With North up, I would see much
less, especially when I'm flying east or west.

SeeYou Mobile has Heading Up, but I haven't used it much. I'll try it
again during the next wave flight, when there is often big difference
between heading and track, and see if I like it. Normally, track and
heading are close enough it doesn't seem to be important.

Mobile also offers Goal Up, which I sometimes use when I'm flying a goal
oriented flight, like a contest or record task.

I do have the screen switch to North Up while I'm thermalling, because
it's easier to look at the map and select airports, etc. when it's steady.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org