Airliner crashes into Hudson River after LGA departure

Bob Officer wrote in
:

On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 20:44:19 +0000 (UTC), in alt.usenet.kooks, Bertie
the Bunyip wrote:

Bob Officer wrote in
m:

On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 18:37:04 +0000 (UTC), in alt.usenet.kooks,
Bertie
the Bunyip wrote:

"Scott M. Kozel" wrote in
:

Government Shill #2 wrote:

George wrote:

I wonder in this example why did the Electra stall and spin?
From my very first lessons it was drilled into my head by all my
instructors "WHEN THE ENGINE FAILS GET THE NOSE DOWN AND FLY THE
AIRPLANE!" I wonder why the Electra didn't remain in a
(somewhat)
straight & level attitude? Was the crew too busy, confused,
alarmed,
to fly/glide the airplane?

ISTR from reading Air Disasters by Macarthur Jobs, that the
Electra
crashed because the birds took out both engines on one side and
the
asymmetric thrust of the remaining engines could not be corrected
by
the available rudder authority. I may be wrong. It was a long
time
ago that I read about it.

Plus the fact that it happened right after takeoff when it was
just
above stall speed.


It wouldn't have been just above stal speed, it would have been just
above V2 whihc would have been at least VSO 1.2

http://aviation-safety.net/database/...?id=19601004-0

A few seconds after taking off from runway 05, the Electra struck
a
flock of starlings. A number of these birds were ingested in
engine
no.1, 2 and 4. Engine no. 1 was shut down and the prop feathered.
Shortly after that the no. 2 and 4 engines experienced a
substantial
momentary loss of power. This caused the plane to yaw to the left
and
decelerate to stall speed. The left wing then dropped, the nose
pitched up and the L-188 rolled left into a spin and fell almost
vertically into the water.

PROBABLE CAUSE: "The unique and critical sequence of the loss and
recovery of engine power following bird ingestion, resulting in
loss
of airspeed and control during takeoff. "


Loss of airspeed due to the loss of three engines. The HP woudl have
been attempting to maintain altitude with a speed trade and no
thrust
to
spare. He would have entually hit VMC and rolled doing this. Just
like
Concorde..

No one can fault Scully. He has exactly the same number of take offs
and landings. That he swam away from his last with no loss
passengers
and crew is a good thing.



At the end of the day, tha's all that counts. There are those who
would
try and tamper with success, though. Evel fjukkers.
We have an obscene name for them, so if any reader is of a timid
disposition, they had best look away now. We call them..

Management pilots.

We have those too on the railroad.

They are generally called Accountants.

At least they don;'t pretend to be engineers!

Bertie

Bob Officer wrote in
:

On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 20:49:57 +0000 (UTC), in alt.usenet.kooks, Bertie
the Bunyip wrote:

Bob Officer wrote in
m:

On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 09:31:50 -0600, in alt.usenet.kooks, §ñühw¤£f
wrote:

Bob Officer pinched out a steaming pile
:

On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 09:31:29 -0600, in alt.usenet.kooks, §ñühw¤£f
wrote:

Bob Officer pinched out a steaming pile
m:

On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 18:20:16 +0000 (UTC), in alt.usenet.kooks,
Bertie
the Bunyip wrote:

§ñühw¤£f wrote in news:t96dnQfJw-
:

Bertie the Bunyip pinched out a steaming
pile
:

"Scott M. Kozel" wrote in news:gkvte8
$eth
$1
:

§ñühw¤£f wrote:

I propose a technological solution to the problem of bird
strikes:
turboprops.
Lets return to the good old days pre-jet engines.

Well ... while the L-188 Lockheed Electra example is a
turboprop,
the
above poster apparently didn't realize that a turboprop
engine
has a
jet
engine.

Discuss.

The large piston engines were incredibly complex, and
generally
could
drive airliners at only about half the speed of those with
the
pure
jet
engines.


yes, but they were so much more fun


Bertie

Ok ok...totally *genius* idea: dirigibles.

Excellent. I'll sign on for a course.


Yeah, think on that for a while.

Its either that or the locomotive, chaps.

Only if it's a real one. i.e. Steam

No! Hell no!

And what pray tell is wrong with steam?

Steam locomotives? Everything.

Well man spit it out! Lets not play guessing games here!

Have you ever been on a working steam locomotive?

They are very dirty (producing soot and ash. Very noisy. (usually
about 90-105 dB. They get louder under full power)

Excelelnt.

The engines I road we have the full ear muff/sound reduction. The
SP4449 and the both of the UP steam engines. I also road in an steam
engine at the of 5... But that hardly counts. (my dad was steam and
diesel locomotive engineer) The others were as a adult.

Most all locomotive engineers from the steam era were deaf. and
suffered breathing problems.

Pretty much the same as pilts, then.

Yep, but I think the fumes and hearing damage might be higher in the
railroad business. The length of daily exposure before 1973 was 16
hours/day/7 days a week.

Most all locomotive engineers from the diesel era still suffer
hearing loss. Most all operating employees for railroads with more
than 10 years of service have some hearing loss. About ten years ago
the railroads started losing lawsuits over hearing losses and
started
a hearing conservation program. Too bad it was 27 years too late.

Biggest complaints from crews which still use those 1st and 2nd
generation locomotives, noise and exhaust fumes in the cab.

Guess what?


http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...oxic-fumes-in-
airliner-cabins-ignored-by-authorities.html


http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...ndustry.uknews

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...umes-check-on-
ba-jets-683819.html

http://www.welcomeaboardtoxicairline...amediapack.pdf


http://www.corporatewatch.org/?lid=3073

Yep, I used those studies myself to help the union combat the
carriers demands.


They'r ecrap. Just gettin off the stinky 75 in fact. Thank fukiin christ
for that.

1315 more days and then I can retire. I've sailed nearly 800 nautical
miles in the last 3 weeks... I've only fired up the engine three
times. all three times because the local port master disliked vessels
coming or leaving under sail. Silence is golden...

Sailboats gotta luff them.



yes. they won; tpay me to make em go though. ****.

Bertie

On Jan 21, 2:49*pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Bob Officer wrote :





On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 09:31:50 -0600, in alt.usenet.kooks, §ñühw¤£f
wrote:

Bob Officer pinched out a steaming pile
:

On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 09:31:29 -0600, in alt.usenet.kooks, §ñühw¤£f
wrote:

Bob Officer pinched out a steaming pile
:

On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 18:20:16 +0000 (UTC), in alt.usenet.kooks,
Bertie
the Bunyip wrote:

§ñühw¤£f wrote in news:t96dnQfJw-
:

Bertie the Bunyip pinched out a steaming
pile
:

"Scott M. Kozel" wrote in news:gkvte8$eth
$1
:

§ñühw¤£f wrote:

I propose a technological solution to the problem of bird
strikes:
turboprops.
Lets return to the good old days pre-jet engines.

Well ... while the L-188 Lockheed Electra example is a
turboprop,
the
above poster apparently didn't realize that a turboprop engine
has a
jet
engine.

Discuss.

The large piston engines were incredibly complex, and
generally
could
drive airliners at only about half the speed of those with the
pure
jet
engines.

yes, but they were so much more fun

Bertie

Ok ok...totally *genius* idea: dirigibles.

Excellent. I'll sign on for a course.

Yeah, think on that for a while.

Its either that or the locomotive, chaps.

Only if it's a real one. i.e. Steam

No! Hell no!

And what pray tell is wrong with steam?

Steam locomotives? Everything.

Well man spit it out! Lets not play guessing games here!

Have you ever been on a working steam locomotive?

They are very dirty (producing soot and ash. Very noisy. (usually
about 90-105 dB. They get louder under full power)

Excelelnt.



Most all locomotive engineers from the steam era were deaf. and
suffered breathing problems.

Pretty much the same as pilts, then.



Most all locomotive engineers from the diesel era still suffer
hearing loss. Most all operating employees for railroads with more
than 10 years of service have some hearing loss. About ten years ago
the railroads started losing lawsuits over hearing losses and started
a hearing conservation program. Too bad it was 27 years too late.

Biggest complaints from crews which still use those 1st and 2nd
generation locomotives, noise and exhaust fumes in the cab.

Guess what?

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...oxic-fumes-in-
airliner-cabins-ignored-by-authorities.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...ndustry.uknews

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...umes-check-on-
ba-jets-683819.html

http://www.welcomeaboardtoxicairline...amediapack.pdf

http://www.corporatewatch.org/?lid=3073

Bertie

Man, the kerosene smell of a hot re-fuel of the Otter during skydive
operations (Spaceland, Houston Gulf, '80's & '90's) was part of the
experience.

Had a chance to wander through a Blackhawk at Wings Over houston last
year and the smell brought it all back. Right down to the Sunday
morning first jump of the day when all the pickled eggs and beer farts
would begin to make an appearance at 5K. Mix in a little toxic TexMex
for flavor and you were lucky if you were sitting by the aft door.

Bertie the Bunyip pinched out a steaming pile
:

§ñühw¤£f wrote in
:

In message , Bob Officer
wrote:
On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 09:31:50 -0600, in alt.usenet.kooks, §ñühw¤£f
wrote:

Bob Officer pinched out a steaming pile
:

On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 09:31:29 -0600, in alt.usenet.kooks, §ñühw¤£f
wrote:

Bob Officer pinched out a steaming pile
:

On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 18:20:16 +0000 (UTC), in alt.usenet.kooks,
Bertie
the Bunyip wrote:

§ñühw¤£f wrote in news:t96dnQfJw-
:

Bertie the Bunyip pinched out a
steaming
pile
:

"Scott M. Kozel" wrote in
news:gkvte8$eth$1 @news.motzarella.org:

§ñühw¤£f wrote:

I propose a technological solution to the problem of bird
strikes:
turboprops.
Lets return to the good old days pre-jet engines.

Well ... while the L-188 Lockheed Electra example is a
turboprop,
the
above poster apparently didn't realize that a turboprop
engine
has a
jet
engine.

Discuss.

The large piston engines were incredibly complex, and
generally
could
drive airliners at only about half the speed of those with
the
pure
jet
engines.


yes, but they were so much more fun


Bertie

Ok ok...totally *genius* idea: dirigibles.

Excellent. I'll sign on for a course.


Yeah, think on that for a while.

Its either that or the locomotive, chaps.

Only if it's a real one. i.e. Steam

No! Hell no!

And what pray tell is wrong with steam?

Steam locomotives? Everything.

Well man spit it out! Lets not play guessing games here!

Have you ever been on a working steam locomotive?

Not while its running.

They are very dirty (producing soot and ash. Very noisy. (usually
about 90-105 dB. They get louder under full power)

Yeap. Coal fired mostly.

Most all locomotive engineers from the steam era were deaf. and
suffered breathing problems.

My granpa was one
Deaf as hell but no breathing problems...he didnt know who the ****
I
was later since he was all alzheimersy & stuff.

Most all locomotive engineers from the diesel era still suffer
hearing loss. Most all operating employees for railroads with more
than 10 years of service have some hearing loss. About ten years
ago
the railroads started losing lawsuits over hearing losses and
started
a hearing conservation program. Too bad it was 27 years too late.

YEah...back in the day it was a macho job and you didnt **** & moan
about the conditions.

Biggest complaints from crews which still use those 1st and 2nd
generation locomotives, noise and exhaust fumes in the cab.

Ever seen a track weasel?


Mm, no. I seem to remeber hearing the term, though. What is it?


back in the olden days the trains toilet dumped straight onto the
tracks...the TP that persisted was called a "track weasel".


--
http://www.bds-palestine.net/?q=node/9
___ ___ ___ ___
/\__\ /\ \ /\ \ /\ \
/:/ _/_ \:\ \ \:\ \ \:\ \
/:/ /\ \ \:\ \ \:\ \ \:\ \
/:/ /::\ \ _____\:\ \ ___ \:\ \ ___ /::\ \
/:/_/:/\:\__\ /::::::::\__\ /\ \ \:\__\ /\ /:/\:\__\
\:\/:/ /:/ / \:\~~\~~\/__/ \:\ \ /:/ / \:\/:/ \/__/
\::/ /:/ / \:\ \ \:\ /:/ / \::/__/
\/_/:/ / \:\ \ \:\/:/ / \:\ \
/:/ / \:\__\ \::/ / \:\__\

Bob Officer pinched out a steaming pile
:

On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 15:36:12 -0700, in alt.usenet.kooks, §ñühw¤£f
wrote:

In message , Bob Officer
wrote:
On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 09:31:50 -0600, in alt.usenet.kooks, §ñühw¤£f
wrote:

Bob Officer pinched out a steaming pile
:

On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 09:31:29 -0600, in alt.usenet.kooks, §ñühw¤£f
wrote:

Bob Officer pinched out a steaming pile
:

On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 18:20:16 +0000 (UTC), in alt.usenet.kooks,
Bertie
the Bunyip wrote:

§ñühw¤£f wrote in news:t96dnQfJw-
:

Bertie the Bunyip pinched out a
steaming
pile
:

"Scott M. Kozel" wrote in
news:gkvte8$eth$1
:

§ñühw¤£f wrote:

I propose a technological solution to the problem of bird
strikes:
turboprops.
Lets return to the good old days pre-jet engines.

Well ... while the L-188 Lockheed Electra example is a
turboprop,
the
above poster apparently didn't realize that a turboprop
engine
has a
jet
engine.

Discuss.

The large piston engines were incredibly complex, and
generally
could
drive airliners at only about half the speed of those with
the
pure
jet
engines.


yes, but they were so much more fun


Bertie

Ok ok...totally *genius* idea: dirigibles.

Excellent. I'll sign on for a course.


Yeah, think on that for a while.

Its either that or the locomotive, chaps.

Only if it's a real one. i.e. Steam

No! Hell no!

And what pray tell is wrong with steam?

Steam locomotives? Everything.

Well man spit it out! Lets not play guessing games here!

Have you ever been on a working steam locomotive?

Not while its running.

I have.

Didja get to be the shovelman?


They are very dirty (producing soot and ash. Very noisy. (usually
about 90-105 dB. They get louder under full power)

Yeap. Coal fired mostly.

One coal and everything else was oil.

Leave us not forget *wood*...it was plentiful once across the country.

Most all locomotive engineers from the steam era were deaf. and
suffered breathing problems.

My granpa was one

So was mine, and so was my Dad.

Go Union!

Deaf as hell but no breathing problems...he didnt know who the **** I
was
later since he was all alzheimersy & stuff.

My dad died from lung cancer (both Small Cell Carcinoma and
Metastasized melanoma.

Bummer...the smoke was it?

Most all locomotive engineers from the diesel era still suffer
hearing loss. Most all operating employees for railroads with more
than 10 years of service have some hearing loss. About ten years
ago
the railroads started losing lawsuits over hearing losses and
started
a hearing conservation program. Too bad it was 27 years too late.

YEah...back in the day it was a macho job and you didnt **** & moan
about the conditions.

The ****ed and moaned even then. I've listen to those guys all my
life.

no...they laughed at management...but as for crying about the
conditions?
No real railroader would complain "its too tough".

Biggest complaints from crews which still use those 1st and 2nd
generation locomotives, noise and exhaust fumes in the cab.

Ever seen a track weasel?

I seen just about everything. including the look on a kids face just
after he finally looked up and saw the locomotive, just before it hit
him.

Ugh. Musta been a deaf kid.


--
http://www.bds-palestine.net/?q=node/9
___ ___ ___ ___
/\__\ /\ \ /\ \ /\ \
/:/ _/_ \:\ \ \:\ \ \:\ \
/:/ /\ \ \:\ \ \:\ \ \:\ \
/:/ /::\ \ _____\:\ \ ___ \:\ \ ___ /::\ \
/:/_/:/\:\__\ /::::::::\__\ /\ \ \:\__\ /\ /:/\:\__\
\:\/:/ /:/ / \:\~~\~~\/__/ \:\ \ /:/ / \:\/:/ \/__/
\::/ /:/ / \:\ \ \:\ /:/ / \::/__/
\/_/:/ / \:\ \ \:\/:/ / \:\ \
/:/ / \:\__\ \::/ / \:\__\

Aratzio pinched out a steaming pile
:

On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 09:33:38 -0600, in the land of alt.usenet.kooks,
§ñühw¤£f got double secret probation for
writing:

Aratzio pinched out a steaming pile
:

On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 09:24:17 -0600, in the land of alt.usenet.kooks,
§ñühw¤£f got double secret probation for
writing:

Bertie the Bunyip pinched out a steaming pile
:

"Scott M. Kozel" wrote in news:gkvte8$eth$1
:

§ñühw¤£f wrote:

I propose a technological solution to the problem of bird
strikes:
turboprops.
Lets return to the good old days pre-jet engines.

Well ... while the L-188 Lockheed Electra example is a
turboprop,
the
above poster apparently didn't realize that a turboprop engine
has
a
jet
engine.

Discuss.

The large piston engines were incredibly complex, and generally
could
drive airliners at only about half the speed of those with the
pure
jet
engines.


yes, but they were so much more fun


Bertie

Ok ok...totally *genius* idea: dirigibles.

Yeah, think on that for a while.

Its either that or the locomotive, chaps.

We gots ours!
http://www.airshipventures.com

Was watching it a few months ago doing patterns around Moffet field.

Nice. Blimps do lousy in adverse wind conditions but who needs to
travel anyway wehn teh weather is bad?

^_^

They fly a dirigible. Check out the placement of the engines.

So they're side mounted. They dont make a blimp that can kickass in
strong winds.
Too Much Surface Area, fyi.

--
http://www.bds-palestine.net/?q=node/9
___ ___ ___ ___
/\__\ /\ \ /\ \ /\ \
/:/ _/_ \:\ \ \:\ \ \:\ \
/:/ /\ \ \:\ \ \:\ \ \:\ \
/:/ /::\ \ _____\:\ \ ___ \:\ \ ___ /::\ \
/:/_/:/\:\__\ /::::::::\__\ /\ \ \:\__\ /\ /:/\:\__\
\:\/:/ /:/ / \:\~~\~~\/__/ \:\ \ /:/ / \:\/:/ \/__/
\::/ /:/ / \:\ \ \:\ /:/ / \::/__/
\/_/:/ / \:\ \ \:\/:/ / \:\ \
/:/ / \:\__\ \::/ / \:\__\

Bob Officer wrote in
:

On Thu, 22 Jan 2009 02:51:48 +0000 (UTC), in alt.usenet.kooks, Bertie
the Bunyip wrote:

Bob Officer wrote in
m:

On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 20:44:19 +0000 (UTC), in alt.usenet.kooks,
Bertie
the Bunyip wrote:

Bob Officer wrote in
m:

On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 18:37:04 +0000 (UTC), in alt.usenet.kooks,
Bertie
the Bunyip wrote:

"Scott M. Kozel" wrote in
:

Government Shill #2 wrote:

George wrote:

I wonder in this example why did the Electra stall and spin?
From my very first lessons it was drilled into my head by all
my
instructors "WHEN THE ENGINE FAILS GET THE NOSE DOWN AND FLY
THE
AIRPLANE!" I wonder why the Electra didn't remain in a
(somewhat)
straight & level attitude? Was the crew too busy, confused,
alarmed,
to fly/glide the airplane?

ISTR from reading Air Disasters by Macarthur Jobs, that the
Electra
crashed because the birds took out both engines on one side and
the
asymmetric thrust of the remaining engines could not be
corrected
by
the available rudder authority. I may be wrong. It was a long
time
ago that I read about it.

Plus the fact that it happened right after takeoff when it was
just
above stall speed.


It wouldn't have been just above stal speed, it would have been
just
above V2 whihc would have been at least VSO 1.2

http://aviation-safety.net/database/...?id=19601004-0

A few seconds after taking off from runway 05, the Electra
struck
a
flock of starlings. A number of these birds were ingested in
engine
no.1, 2 and 4. Engine no. 1 was shut down and the prop
feathered.
Shortly after that the no. 2 and 4 engines experienced a
substantial
momentary loss of power. This caused the plane to yaw to the
left
and
decelerate to stall speed. The left wing then dropped, the nose
pitched up and the L-188 rolled left into a spin and fell almost
vertically into the water.

PROBABLE CAUSE: "The unique and critical sequence of the loss
and
recovery of engine power following bird ingestion, resulting in
loss
of airspeed and control during takeoff. "


Loss of airspeed due to the loss of three engines. The HP woudl
have
been attempting to maintain altitude with a speed trade and no
thrust
to
spare. He would have entually hit VMC and rolled doing this. Just
like
Concorde..

No one can fault Scully. He has exactly the same number of take
offs
and landings. That he swam away from his last with no loss
passengers
and crew is a good thing.



At the end of the day, tha's all that counts. There are those who
would
try and tamper with success, though. Evel fjukkers.
We have an obscene name for them, so if any reader is of a timid
disposition, they had best look away now. We call them..

Management pilots.

We have those too on the railroad.

They are generally called Accountants.

At least they don;'t pretend to be engineers!

They try...

but generally get ignored.

There is at least, some justice in this ol world.


Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
ah wrote in news:4973fe28$0$57681
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
ah wrote in
anews.com:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
ah wrote in news:49728b5c$0$57670
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
"Maxwell" #$$9#@%%%.^^^ wrote in news:%Focl.29929$H12.18354
@newsfe12.iad:


"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message
...
John wrote in
news:32b8ee0b-1587-4404-a9f3-e33d06d50c51
@u18g2000pro.googlegroups.com:

On Jan 15, 3:12 pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
Kingfish writes:
Holy smokes! CNN is reporting an airliner went down in the
Hudson
after departing LaGuardia. I heard something about
birdstrikes,
but
can't imagine a double engine failure due to that(?) They
sure picked a cold day to go swimming... Hope everybody is
ok...

Bird strikes are a leading cause of engine failure. Jet
engines
don't
often
fail all on their own.

Well, according to
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...y_channel.jsp?
channel=busav&
id=news/eng08036.xml

By the way, the study's authors noted that compressor
stalls/surges
account for two-thirds of the engine malfunctions in today's
turbofans. This is a change from earlier generation turbine
designs
in
which uncontained failures were the principal malfunction.
Since
stall/ surge is the primary engine malfunction, one would
assume
that
it would be a regular item during initial, recurrent or
simulator training. And yet, I cannot recall ever reviewing
the
matter or
being
exposed to a compressor stall/surge during a simulator
session.


I have, but only a couple of times and just to run through the
drill.Most checklists just have you retarding the throttle
and/or
shutting down anyhow.
Most times nowadays with high bypass fans it trashes the engine
straight
away, unlike the old JT8s and such which would fart away
happily
enough
until you pulled the thrust lever back.


Bertie


Sounds like you, retarded and farting away.



Awww, maxie make a witty!

ROLF!


Tie me kangaroo down, sport.

What-ho, Squiffy?


uh wwuh uh wwuh uh whiggga whigga whuh..

Cabbages on the ceiling, Ser!

Rice in all the crevices.

Makes a whole new meaning for "chop-stix", eh?
--
ah

wrote in
:

On Jan 21, 2:49*pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Bob Officer wrote
innews:ta0fn45t6pdfks8hkgigp638
:





On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 09:31:50 -0600, in alt.usenet.kooks, §ñühw¤
£f
wrote:

Bob Officer pinched out a steaming pile
:

On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 09:31:29 -0600, in alt.usenet.kooks, §ñühw
¤£f
wrote:

Bob Officer pinched out a steaming pile
:

On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 18:20:16 +0000 (UTC), in alt.usenet.kooks,
Bertie
the Bunyip wrote:

§ñühw¤£f wrote in news:t96dnQfJw-
:

Bertie the Bunyip pinched out a
steaming
pile
:

"Scott M. Kozel" wrote in
news:gkvte8$eth
$1
:

§ñühw¤£f wrote:

I propose a technological solution to the problem of bird
strikes:
turboprops.
Lets return to the good old days pre-jet engines.

Well ... while the L-188 Lockheed Electra example is a
turboprop,
the
above poster apparently didn't realize that a turboprop
engine
has a
jet
engine.

Discuss.

The large piston engines were incredibly complex, and
generally
could
drive airliners at only about half the speed of those with
the
pure
jet
engines.

yes, but they were so much more fun

Bertie

Ok ok...totally *genius* idea: dirigibles.

Excellent. I'll sign on for a course.

Yeah, think on that for a while.

Its either that or the locomotive, chaps.

Only if it's a real one. i.e. Steam

No! Hell no!

And what pray tell is wrong with steam?

Steam locomotives? Everything.

Well man spit it out! Lets not play guessing games here!

Have you ever been on a working steam locomotive?

They are very dirty (producing soot and ash. Very noisy. (usually
about 90-105 dB. They get louder under full power)

Excelelnt.



Most all locomotive engineers from the steam era were deaf. and
suffered breathing problems.

Pretty much the same as pilts, then.



Most all locomotive engineers from the diesel era still suffer
hearing loss. Most all operating employees for railroads with more
than 10 years of service have some hearing loss. About ten years
ago the railroads started losing lawsuits over hearing losses and
started a hearing conservation program. Too bad it was 27 years too
late.

Biggest complaints from crews which still use those 1st and 2nd
generation locomotives, noise and exhaust fumes in the cab.

Guess what?

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...8/toxic-fumes-
in-
airliner-cabins-ignored-by-authorities.html


http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...eindustry.ukne
ws

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...t-fumes-check-
on-
ba-jets-683819.html

http://www.welcomeaboardtoxicairline...amediapack.pdf

http://www.corporatewatch.org/?lid=3073

Bertie

Man, the kerosene smell of a hot re-fuel of the Otter during skydive
operations (Spaceland, Houston Gulf, '80's & '90's) was part of the
experience.

Had a chance to wander through a Blackhawk at Wings Over houston last
year and the smell brought it all back. Right down to the Sunday
morning first jump of the day when all the pickled eggs and beer farts
would begin to make an appearance at 5K. Mix in a little toxic TexMex
for flavor and you were lucky if you were sitting by the aft door.

Well, this stuff is different. it's not fuel gettng in, well there is
some of that as wel, but engine lube oil, which, depending on the brand,
contains **** that was developed as a chemical warfare agent by the
germans in the 30s
See Tricresyl organo phosphates, just to name one. In some types of
airplanes you can actually smell it. RR powered 757s and Bae 146s for
instance are amongst the worst, but anything that uses bleed air is
dumping some in. It's quite a different smell from burnt kerosene,
though.
Boeing are going with a seperate blwoer for the 787 because of this
problem.

Bertie

§ñühw¤£f wrote in
et:

Bertie the Bunyip pinched out a steaming pile
:

§ñühw¤£f wrote in
:

In message , Bob Officer
wrote:
On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 09:31:50 -0600, in alt.usenet.kooks, §ñühw¤£f
wrote:

Bob Officer pinched out a steaming pile
:

On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 09:31:29 -0600, in alt.usenet.kooks, §ñühw¤£f
wrote:

Bob Officer pinched out a steaming pile
:

On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 18:20:16 +0000 (UTC), in alt.usenet.kooks,
Bertie
the Bunyip wrote:

§ñühw¤£f wrote in news:t96dnQfJw-
:

Bertie the Bunyip pinched out a
steaming
pile
:

"Scott M. Kozel" wrote in
news:gkvte8$eth$1 @news.motzarella.org:

§ñühw¤£f wrote:

I propose a technological solution to the problem of bird
strikes:
turboprops.
Lets return to the good old days pre-jet engines.

Well ... while the L-188 Lockheed Electra example is a
turboprop,
the
above poster apparently didn't realize that a turboprop
engine
has a
jet
engine.

Discuss.

The large piston engines were incredibly complex, and
generally
could
drive airliners at only about half the speed of those with
the
pure
jet
engines.


yes, but they were so much more fun


Bertie

Ok ok...totally *genius* idea: dirigibles.

Excellent. I'll sign on for a course.


Yeah, think on that for a while.

Its either that or the locomotive, chaps.

Only if it's a real one. i.e. Steam

No! Hell no!

And what pray tell is wrong with steam?

Steam locomotives? Everything.

Well man spit it out! Lets not play guessing games here!

Have you ever been on a working steam locomotive?

Not while its running.

They are very dirty (producing soot and ash. Very noisy. (usually
about 90-105 dB. They get louder under full power)

Yeap. Coal fired mostly.

Most all locomotive engineers from the steam era were deaf. and
suffered breathing problems.

My granpa was one
Deaf as hell but no breathing problems...he didnt know who the ****
I
was later since he was all alzheimersy & stuff.

Most all locomotive engineers from the diesel era still suffer
hearing loss. Most all operating employees for railroads with more
than 10 years of service have some hearing loss. About ten years
ago
the railroads started losing lawsuits over hearing losses and
started
a hearing conservation program. Too bad it was 27 years too late.

YEah...back in the day it was a macho job and you didnt **** & moan
about the conditions.

Biggest complaints from crews which still use those 1st and 2nd
generation locomotives, noise and exhaust fumes in the cab.

Ever seen a track weasel?


Mm, no. I seem to remeber hearing the term, though. What is it?


back in the olden days the trains toilet dumped straight onto the
tracks...the TP that persisted was called a "track weasel".




OK never heard of that. ANd now it's lodged in my head forever. When
will I learn?


Bertie