ADS-B Compliance

I confirmed with the FAA recently what others have said here befo after 1/1/2020 glider flight at altitudes 10,000 ft and above AND above 2,500 ft AGL WILL require ADS-B out. The only good news that I got is that the FAA is actively looking at low-cost, low-power GPS sources for the GPS part of ADS-B out. This is probably because Amazon is promoting package delivery by drones, but who knows for sure.

Flying in the high desert West will effectively be grounded w/o ADS-B out compliance after 1/1/2020. I already have a Mode-S ES (extended squitter) transponder (Trig TT-21), but have struggled to find a suitable certified GPS.. Yes, there are units out there, but there size would choke an elephant! Typically, they are 5.5" x 6.5" x 2.3" (give or take half an inch). I don't know about the rest of you, but fitting a monster like that into my panel just ain't happening.

Does anybody know of a smaller solution?

Thanks,

Tom

On Tuesday, March 1, 2016 at 5:45:43 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
I confirmed with the FAA recently what others have said here befo after 1/1/2020 glider flight at altitudes 10,000 ft and above AND above 2,500 ft AGL WILL require ADS-B out. The only good news that I got is that the FAA is actively looking at low-cost, low-power GPS sources for the GPS part of ADS-B out. This is probably because Amazon is promoting package delivery by drones, but who knows for sure.

Flying in the high desert West will effectively be grounded w/o ADS-B out compliance after 1/1/2020. I already have a Mode-S ES (extended squitter) transponder (Trig TT-21), but have struggled to find a suitable certified GPS. Yes, there are units out there, but there size would choke an elephant! Typically, they are 5.5" x 6.5" x 2.3" (give or take half an inch). I don't know about the rest of you, but fitting a monster like that into my panel just ain't happening.

Does anybody know of a smaller solution?

Thanks,

Tom

Tom,
Please see below. It is from the FAA site and is one of many Q&As.

https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/programs/adsb/faq/

Please take a look at the last statement as it may apply to you. If you do want to install a unit you may want to wait a bit to see if lower cost, lighter and smaller units become available (including potential "TABs" units)....

Thx - Renny

"How will the new ADS-B Out rule affect me?

On January 1, 2020, when operating in the airspace designated in 14 CFR § 91.225 (outlined below) you must be equipped with ADS-B Out avionics that meet the performance requirements of 14 CFR §91.227. Aircraft not complying with the requirements may be denied access to this airspace.
Under the rule, ADS-B Out performance will be required to operate in:
Class A, B, and C.
Class E airspace within the 48 contiguous states and the District of Columbia at and above 10,000 feet MSL, excluding the airspace at and below 2,500 feet above the surface.
Class E airspace at and above 3,000 feet MSL over the Gulf of Mexico from the coastline of the United States out to 12 nautical miles.
Around those airports identified in 14 CFR part 91, Appendix D.

The ADS-B Out rule does not apply in the airspace defined in items 1 and 2 above for any aircraft that was not originally certificated with an electrical system or that has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, including balloons and gliders."

On Tuesday, March 1, 2016 at 6:22:08 PM UTC-7, Renny wrote:
On Tuesday, March 1, 2016 at 5:45:43 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
I confirmed with the FAA recently what others have said here befo after 1/1/2020 glider flight at altitudes 10,000 ft and above AND above 2,500 ft AGL WILL require ADS-B out. The only good news that I got is that the FAA is actively looking at low-cost, low-power GPS sources for the GPS part of ADS-B out. This is probably because Amazon is promoting package delivery by drones, but who knows for sure.

Flying in the high desert West will effectively be grounded w/o ADS-B out compliance after 1/1/2020. I already have a Mode-S ES (extended squitter) transponder (Trig TT-21), but have struggled to find a suitable certified GPS. Yes, there are units out there, but there size would choke an elephant! Typically, they are 5.5" x 6.5" x 2.3" (give or take half an inch). I don't know about the rest of you, but fitting a monster like that into my panel just ain't happening.

Does anybody know of a smaller solution?

Thanks,

Tom

Tom,
Please see below. It is from the FAA site and is one of many Q&As.

https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/programs/adsb/faq/

Please take a look at the last statement as it may apply to you. If you do want to install a unit you may want to wait a bit to see if lower cost, lighter and smaller units become available (including potential "TABs" units)...

Thx - Renny

"How will the new ADS-B Out rule affect me?

On January 1, 2020, when operating in the airspace designated in 14 CFR § 91.225 (outlined below) you must be equipped with ADS-B Out avionics that meet the performance requirements of 14 CFR §91.227. Aircraft not complying with the requirements may be denied access to this airspace.
Under the rule, ADS-B Out performance will be required to operate in:
1. Class A, B, and C.
2. Class E airspace within the 48 contiguous states and the District of Columbia at and above 10,000 feet MSL, excluding the airspace at and below 2,500 feet above the surface.
3. Class E airspace at and above 3,000 feet MSL over the Gulf of Mexico from the coastline of the United States out to 12 nautical miles.
4. Around those airports identified in 14 CFR part 91, Appendix D.

The ADS-B Out rule does not apply in the airspace defined in items 1 and 2 above for any aircraft that was not originally certificated with an electrical system or that has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, including balloons and gliders."

On Tuesday, March 1, 2016 at 7:45:43 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
I confirmed with the FAA recently what others have said here befo after 1/1/2020 glider flight at altitudes 10,000 ft and above AND above 2,500 ft AGL WILL require ADS-B out. The only good news that I got is that the FAA is actively looking at low-cost, low-power GPS sources for the GPS part of ADS-B out. This is probably because Amazon is promoting package delivery by drones, but who knows for sure.

Flying in the high desert West will effectively be grounded w/o ADS-B out compliance after 1/1/2020. I already have a Mode-S ES (extended squitter) transponder (Trig TT-21), but have struggled to find a suitable certified GPS. Yes, there are units out there, but there size would choke an elephant! Typically, they are 5.5" x 6.5" x 2.3" (give or take half an inch). I don't know about the rest of you, but fitting a monster like that into my panel just ain't happening.

Does anybody know of a smaller solution?

Thanks,

Tom

Your Trig TT-21 would not be compliant due to too low power output regardless of what position sensor is used with it.

On Tuesday, March 1, 2016 at 5:37:15 PM UTC-8, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
On Tuesday, March 1, 2016 at 7:45:43 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
I confirmed with the FAA recently what others have said here befo after 1/1/2020 glider flight at altitudes 10,000 ft and above AND above 2,500 ft AGL WILL require ADS-B out. The only good news that I got is that the FAA is actively looking at low-cost, low-power GPS sources for the GPS part of ADS-B out. This is probably because Amazon is promoting package delivery by drones, but who knows for sure.

Flying in the high desert West will effectively be grounded w/o ADS-B out compliance after 1/1/2020. I already have a Mode-S ES (extended squitter) transponder (Trig TT-21), but have struggled to find a suitable certified GPS. Yes, there are units out there, but there size would choke an elephant! Typically, they are 5.5" x 6.5" x 2.3" (give or take half an inch). I don't know about the rest of you, but fitting a monster like that into my panel just ain't happening.

Does anybody know of a smaller solution?

Thanks,

Tom

Your Trig TT-21 would not be compliant due to too low power output regardless of what position sensor is used with it.

The question concerned a complying GPS, but your comment about the TT-21 is just wrong.

Tom

On Tuesday, March 1, 2016 at 6:14:33 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
On Tuesday, March 1, 2016 at 5:37:15 PM UTC-8, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
On Tuesday, March 1, 2016 at 7:45:43 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
I confirmed with the FAA recently what others have said here befo after 1/1/2020 glider flight at altitudes 10,000 ft and above AND above 2,500 ft AGL WILL require ADS-B out. The only good news that I got is that the FAA is actively looking at low-cost, low-power GPS sources for the GPS part of ADS-B out. This is probably because Amazon is promoting package delivery by drones, but who knows for sure.

Flying in the high desert West will effectively be grounded w/o ADS-B out compliance after 1/1/2020. I already have a Mode-S ES (extended squitter) transponder (Trig TT-21), but have struggled to find a suitable certified GPS. Yes, there are units out there, but there size would choke an elephant! Typically, they are 5.5" x 6.5" x 2.3" (give or take half an inch). I don't know about the rest of you, but fitting a monster like that into my panel just ain't happening.

Does anybody know of a smaller solution?

Thanks,

Tom

Your Trig TT-21 would not be compliant due to too low power output regardless of what position sensor is used with it.

The question concerned a complying GPS, but your comment about the TT-21 is just wrong.

Tom

Do you have one of the 200W Trig TT-21 models?

On Tuesday, March 1, 2016 at 9:14:33 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
On Tuesday, March 1, 2016 at 5:37:15 PM UTC-8, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
On Tuesday, March 1, 2016 at 7:45:43 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
I confirmed with the FAA recently what others have said here befo after 1/1/2020 glider flight at altitudes 10,000 ft and above AND above 2,500 ft AGL WILL require ADS-B out. The only good news that I got is that the FAA is actively looking at low-cost, low-power GPS sources for the GPS part of ADS-B out. This is probably because Amazon is promoting package delivery by drones, but who knows for sure.

Flying in the high desert West will effectively be grounded w/o ADS-B out compliance after 1/1/2020. I already have a Mode-S ES (extended squitter) transponder (Trig TT-21), but have struggled to find a suitable certified GPS. Yes, there are units out there, but there size would choke an elephant! Typically, they are 5.5" x 6.5" x 2.3" (give or take half an inch). I don't know about the rest of you, but fitting a monster like that into my panel just ain't happening.

Does anybody know of a smaller solution?

Thanks,

Tom

Your Trig TT-21 would not be compliant due to too low power output regardless of what position sensor is used with it.

The question concerned a complying GPS, but your comment about the TT-21 is just wrong.

Tom

Tom, I suggest you read a little before you reply next time. Here is a quote from Trig website for your information.

"Customers in the U.S. should be aware that FAA, Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR) 91.227 requires that a compliant ADS-B Out solution uses a Class 1 transponder. The TT22 is a Class 1 device and meets this requirement. The TT21 is a Class 2 device and does not meet this regulation."

Have a good day.

On Tuesday, March 1, 2016 at 6:29:39 PM UTC-8, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
On Tuesday, March 1, 2016 at 9:14:33 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
On Tuesday, March 1, 2016 at 5:37:15 PM UTC-8, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
On Tuesday, March 1, 2016 at 7:45:43 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
I confirmed with the FAA recently what others have said here befo after 1/1/2020 glider flight at altitudes 10,000 ft and above AND above 2,500 ft AGL WILL require ADS-B out. The only good news that I got is that the FAA is actively looking at low-cost, low-power GPS sources for the GPS part of ADS-B out. This is probably because Amazon is promoting package delivery by drones, but who knows for sure.

Flying in the high desert West will effectively be grounded w/o ADS-B out compliance after 1/1/2020. I already have a Mode-S ES (extended squitter) transponder (Trig TT-21), but have struggled to find a suitable certified GPS. Yes, there are units out there, but there size would choke an elephant! Typically, they are 5.5" x 6.5" x 2.3" (give or take half an inch). I don't know about the rest of you, but fitting a monster like that into my panel just ain't happening.

Does anybody know of a smaller solution?

Thanks,

Tom

Your Trig TT-21 would not be compliant due to too low power output regardless of what position sensor is used with it.

The question concerned a complying GPS, but your comment about the TT-21 is just wrong.

Tom

Tom, I suggest you read a little before you reply next time. Here is a quote from Trig website for your information.

"Customers in the U.S. should be aware that FAA, Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR) 91.227 requires that a compliant ADS-B Out solution uses a Class 1 transponder. The TT22 is a Class 1 device and meets this requirement. The TT21 is a Class 2 device and does not meet this regulation."

Have a good day.

So it seems - yet another comment for our friends at the FAA.

Remy, confirm gliders ae not required to have any ADS-B out, above or below 10,000 MSL, in or out of the 30nm Mode C Veil.
They have not changed the FARs.

BillT

On Tuesday, March 1, 2016 at 6:14:33 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
On Tuesday, March 1, 2016 at 5:37:15 PM UTC-8, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
On Tuesday, March 1, 2016 at 7:45:43 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
I confirmed with the FAA recently what others have said here befo after 1/1/2020 glider flight at altitudes 10,000 ft and above AND above 2,500 ft AGL WILL require ADS-B out. The only good news that I got is that the FAA is actively looking at low-cost, low-power GPS sources for the GPS part of ADS-B out. This is probably because Amazon is promoting package delivery by drones, but who knows for sure.

Flying in the high desert West will effectively be grounded w/o ADS-B out compliance after 1/1/2020. I already have a Mode-S ES (extended squitter) transponder (Trig TT-21), but have struggled to find a suitable certified GPS. Yes, there are units out there, but there size would choke an elephant! Typically, they are 5.5" x 6.5" x 2.3" (give or take half an inch). I don't know about the rest of you, but fitting a monster like that into my panel just ain't happening.

Does anybody know of a smaller solution?

Thanks,

Tom

Your Trig TT-21 would not be compliant due to too low power output regardless of what position sensor is used with it.

The question concerned a complying GPS, but your comment about the TT-21 is just wrong.

Tom

Oh what utter bull.

So, Andrzej, one of the few owners of a fully certified/complaint ADS-B Out system (just happens to use a Trig TT-22) in a glider in the USA, and somebody who has posted multiple time on r.a.s explaining his ADS-B Out/In setup and all that it can do, is trying to help explain you are confused and you want to tell him his answer is "just wrong"?

So far not a single thing you have posted in this whole thread is correct. Please stop polluting r.a.s with your confused garbage. I don't care if you are utterly confused about what you need to do or not, but I do care when you get on here and start sprouting this stuff as if it is fact and spreading all this misinformation to other pilots. Especially when there are actually things happening that folks will need to pay attention to, that likely will impact many owners/pilots, like possible loss of transponder and ADS-B carriage exemptions and/or adoption of TABS technology.

The limitation with the TT-21 not being suitable for the 2020 Carriage mandate (which gliders are currently exempt from) has been covered many times on r.a.s. I've personally posted many warnings about this Trig TT-21 limitation. And none of this is new, I've worked with the previous Trig distributor to get the word out on this to resellers, and I've spoken or emailed with several of the Trig resellers in the glider community to make sure everybody should be aware of this. When I read stuff like what you have posted in this thread I feel I might as well go bang my head on a wall.

So again... Thanks to 14 CFR § 91.227 to meet the FAA 2020 Carriage mandate an aircraft, if using 1090ES out, requires a TSO-C166b Class B1/B1S device or if experimental a device that "meets the performance of TSO-C166b Class B1/B1S" . The Trig TT-21 is only TSO-C166b Class B0, the larger Trig TT-22 is class B1S. The issue here there was power output requirements, driven by communications with the widely spaced FAA ADS-B ground stations, and that requirement was somewhat a surprise to manufactures and others, including Trig. Elsewhere in the world Class B0 devices will be more first-class citizens.

But since gliders are currently exempt from this carriage mandate (all the stuff in your first post is wrong as well) that does not affect many glider pilots, even those who use the TT-21. And there may be legitimate reasons for some Trig TT-21 owners in experiential gliders to want to broadcast ADS-B Out (e.g. for longer-range tracking with PowerFLARM), even if it does not comply with all the 2020 mandate requirements. Trig TT-21 may be usable as a TABS devices to transmit 1090ES even at these lower power levels, *if* TABS/TSO-C199 carriage/installation regulations happen. And *if* gliders lose their 1090ES Out carriage exemption then this *may* provide a path to carriage complaince for TT-21. Emphasis on *if* and *may*. Getting into the weeds of all that what might/might not happen is a waste of time until we see any related regulations.