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#1
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F-35, not F-22, to Protect U.S. Airspace
On 9/11 random airline passengers were better prepared to defend
America than the USAF was. What exactly has changed since? -HJC |
#2
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F-35, not F-22, to Protect U.S. Airspace
On Feb 1, 6:48*pm, hcobb wrote:
On 9/11 random airline passengers were better prepared to defend America than the USAF was. What exactly has changed since? -HJC Exactly how was the Air Force supposed to prevent 9/11? I guess the Air Force wasn't prepared to prevent the banking crisis or global warming either. |
#3
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F-35, not F-22, to Protect U.S. Airspace
150flivver ha scritto:
On Feb 1, 6:48 pm, hcobb wrote: On 9/11 random airline passengers were better prepared to defend America than the USAF was. What exactly has changed since? Exactly how was the Air Force supposed to prevent 9/11? I guess the Air Force wasn't prepared to prevent the banking crisis or global warming either. Trouble is, in a new 9/11 emergency, Pilots will have the will and nerves to shoot knowing that they are killing also civilians ? Certain Air Forces (surely the Japanese) can accept this, with the ultimate sacrifice (It's fully conceivable that a Japanese Pilot with this order choose to wilco it ramming the hijacked a/c, atoning his act with his sacrifice (and place in the Yasukuni shrine..) but about many other A/F & their pilots & aircrews ? It's a rather loaded issue in Military Ethic, I fear.... Best regards from Italy, Dott. Piergiorgio. |
#4
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F-35, not F-22, to Protect U.S. Airspace
On Feb 1, 10:18*pm, "dott.Piergiorgio"
wrote: Trouble is, in a new 9/11 emergency, Pilots will have the will and nerves to shoot knowing that they are killing also civilians ? I'm fairly certain American pilots would, if they were in a 9/11 type scenario or had a good reason to think they were faced with one- i.e., you have a hijacked airliner that's heading for a major city. I remember reading an Aviation Leak article that interviewed the two F-16 pilots who were scrambled to intercept Flight 93 short of Washington- one had no ordinance whatsoever, the other had half a magazine of 20mm. Their plan was for the first guy to empty his gun into the airliner, and if that didn't work the wingman was going to try to ram it. Thanks to the heroics of the Flight 93 passengers they never had to put that plan into action, but both of them seemed completely convinced that they would have gone through with it if required. Certain Air Forces (surely the Japanese) can accept this, with the ultimate sacrifice (It's fully conceivable that a Japanese Pilot with this order choose to wilco it ramming the hijacked a/c, atoning his act with his sacrifice (and place in the Yasukuni shrine..) but about many other A/F & their pilots & aircrews ? I'm not sure you can assume most Japanese pilots would feel that way- Yasukuni is still very much bound up with the rest of pre-WWII style militarism in Japan, and tends to be the province of the far political right more than a universal cultural icon. No doubt there are a good number of Japanese pilots who would feel that way but I wouldn't assume that JASDF pilots as a whole would be any more or less conflicted than any other air force's pilots. If we were discussing a similar scenario in the 1930s or early 40s, I might go along with you. -JTD It's a rather loaded issue in Military Ethic, I fear.... Best regards from Italy, Dott. Piergiorgio. |
#5
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F-35, not F-22, to Protect U.S. Airspace
On Feb 2, 6:45 am, 150flivver wrote:
Exactly how was the Air Force supposed to prevent 9/11? I guess the Air Force wasn't prepared to prevent the banking crisis or global warming either. Which service is it that's supposed to at least intercept hostile aircraft in American skies? Perhaps this also should be handed over to the USMC? -HJC |
#6
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F-35, not F-22, to Protect U.S. Airspace
Jeff Dougherty ha scritto:
On Feb 1, 10:18 pm, "dott.Piergiorgio" wrote: Trouble is, in a new 9/11 emergency, Pilots will have the will and nerves to shoot knowing that they are killing also civilians ? I'm fairly certain American pilots would, if they were in a 9/11 type scenario or had a good reason to think they were faced with one- i.e., you have a hijacked airliner that's heading for a major city. I remember reading an Aviation Leak article that interviewed the two F-16 pilots who were scrambled to intercept Flight 93 short of Washington- one had no ordinance whatsoever, the other had half a magazine of 20mm. Their plan was for the first guy to empty his gun into the airliner, and if that didn't work the wingman was going to try to ram it. Thanks to the heroics of the Flight 93 passengers they never had to put that plan into action, but both of them seemed completely convinced that they would have gone through with it if required. I can agree on this (and both pilots, esp. the Wingman) but back then these was desperate measures under exceptional circumstances. Another thing is actually planning & ordering the deliberate killing of civilian, many of them citizens of the same country of the AF involved (I keep this on the general perspective) this is the major military Ethic issue I refer.... I'm sure many air forces have contingency plans on this, but that the orders will be given and carried, is a really big unknown; And if in the aftermath is ascertained that was a false alarm, (that is, the a/c wasn't hijacked and/or the hijackers has no intention to use the a/c as weapon) the morale of the entire AF involved is guaranteed to plummet to the very low, esp. of the people more or less directly involved in giving executing that order. Certain Air Forces (surely the Japanese) can accept this, with the ultimate sacrifice (It's fully conceivable that a Japanese Pilot with this order choose to wilco it ramming the hijacked a/c, atoning his act with his sacrifice (and place in the Yasukuni shrine..) but about many other A/F & their pilots & aircrews ? I'm not sure you can assume most Japanese pilots would feel that way- Yasukuni is still very much bound up with the rest of pre-WWII style militarism in Japan, and tends to be the province of the far political right more than a universal cultural icon. No doubt there are a good number of Japanese pilots who would feel that way but I wouldn't assume that JASDF pilots as a whole would be any more or less conflicted than any other air force's pilots. If we were discussing a similar scenario in the 1930s or early 40s, I might go along with you. You seems to dismiss the culture & mindset of Japanese (and Eastern people in general) whose are much more inclined towards self-sacrifice, Divine Wind or not (think about deaths caused by overwork (seems to me that in Japanese is called "kuroshi", but I'm not sure...) It's a rather loaded issue in Military Ethic, I fear.... Best regards from Italy, Dott. Piergiorgio. |
#7
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F-35, not F-22, to Protect U.S. Airspace
On Feb 2, 8:18 am, "dott.Piergiorgio"
wrote: Trouble is, in a new 9/11 emergency, Pilots will have the will and nerves to shoot knowing that they are killing also civilians ? No. That is the business as usual, USAF SOP, pre-9/11 thinking that got us into this mess in the first place. The terrorists have already ensured the deaths of the hostages and that blood is not on the hands of our brave airmen. Their job is to first protect as much of America as they can and second defeat America's enemies. MAD is perfectly acceptable, against a rational foe that values their own lives. Against others preemptive kills will be required. Again this is no fault, no crime and no sin on the heads of America's warriors. Now if Europe fails to back President Neo against terrorist states and so forces America to take action to take out the danger (that is even more acute for Europe simply because they don't got no Atlantic moat for the limited protection that offers in a global world), then the blame for the hundreds, thousands or millions of lives to be lost does not fall on America. -HJC |
#8
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F-35, not F-22, to Protect U.S. Airspace
On Feb 2, 4:55*pm, "dott.Piergiorgio"
wrote: Jeff Dougherty ha scritto: On Feb 1, 10:18 pm, "dott.Piergiorgio" wrote: Trouble is, in a new 9/11 emergency, Pilots will have the will and nerves to shoot knowing that they are killing also civilians ? I'm fairly certain American pilots would, if they were in a 9/11 type scenario or had a good reason to think they were faced with one- i.e., you have a hijacked airliner that's heading for a major city. *I remember reading an Aviation Leak article that interviewed the two F-16 pilots who were scrambled to intercept Flight 93 short of Washington- one had no ordinance whatsoever, the other had half a magazine of 20mm. *Their plan was for the first guy to empty his gun into the airliner, and if that didn't work the wingman was going to try to ram it. *Thanks to the heroics of the Flight 93 passengers they never had to put that plan into action, but both of them seemed completely convinced that they would have gone through with it if required. I can agree on this (and both pilots, esp. the Wingman) but back then these was desperate measures under exceptional circumstances. Another thing is actually planning & ordering the deliberate killing of civilian, many of them citizens of the same country of the AF involved (I keep this on the general perspective) this is the major military Ethic issue I refer.... I'm sure many air forces have contingency plans on this, but that the orders will be given and carried, is a really big unknown; And if in the aftermath is ascertained that was a false alarm, (that is, the a/c wasn't hijacked and/or the hijackers has no intention to use the a/c as weapon) the morale of the entire AF involved is guaranteed to plummet to the very low, esp. of the people more or less directly involved in giving executing that order. I don't think it's an unknown at all. We know that two more-or-less random pilots were willing to down an airliner on 9/11 without having *any* time to absorb the concept that a passenger plane could be used as a weapon. That seems to suggest rather strongly that USAF pilots in general would be willing to carry out orders to down an airliner in a "new 9/11" scenario, which is what you were talking about above, and I'm not aware of anything that would make me think pilots from other air forces would act differently. I'm not sure how either of the "false alarm" scenarios would happen either. There have been several cases since 9/11 where airliners have mistakenly squawked 7700, but it's always been sorted out- the flight crew would have to accidentally trip the hijack switch, accidentally fail to answer repeated calls from ATC, and then fail to notice the very concerned F-16 driver flying formation lead on them and letting them see some real Sidewinders. Not that it couldn't happen ever, but if it does it takes so many coincidences it's almost an act of God. As for the hijackers not planning to use the plane as a weapon, how would you know that at the time? (Remember, the 9/11 hijackers told the passengers aboard their planes that they were returning to their origin airports.) You have to assume that the plane full of fellow citizens is about to be used to kill thousands of fellow citizens on the ground. And even if it turns out months later they were planning a hostage play...well, then the pilot would have made the best call he could based on capabilities, not intentions. (Anyone planning an airline hostage play in today's world would be well advised to plan their takeover to happen while the airplane's over nothing in particular and to have a landing field scouted out in the middle of nowhere. If you take over an airplane these days and ask to be diverted near a major city, I wouldn't count on getting there.) Certain Air Forces (surely the Japanese) can accept this, with the ultimate sacrifice (It's fully conceivable that a Japanese Pilot with this order choose to wilco it ramming the hijacked a/c, atoning his act with his sacrifice (and place in the Yasukuni shrine..) but about many other A/F & their pilots & aircrews ? I'm not sure you can assume most Japanese pilots would feel that way- Yasukuni is still very much bound up with the rest of pre-WWII style militarism in Japan, and tends to be the province of the far political right more than a universal cultural icon. *No doubt there are a good number of Japanese pilots who would feel that way but I wouldn't assume that JASDF pilots as a whole would be any more or less conflicted than any other air force's pilots. *If we were discussing a similar scenario in the 1930s or early 40s, I might go along with you. You seems to dismiss the culture & mindset of Japanese (and Eastern people in general) whose are much more inclined towards self-sacrifice, Divine Wind or not (think about deaths caused by overwork (seems to me that in Japanese is called "kuroshi", but I'm not sure...) I'm quite aware of Japan's cultural distinctness, I just think you're overgeneralizing. The scenario you posited could certainly happen, but as with any culture Japanese people have a wide spectrum of beliefs, and without some actual data I wouldn't be prepared to say that a JASDF pilot would be more or less likely to fire in that scenario than a USAF or RAF pilot. -JTD Best regards from Italy, Dott. Piergiorgio. |
#9
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F-35, not F-22, to Protect U.S. Airspace
OK guys, take a deep breath.
Couple of points. Its a GAO study. Some of them are good, some of them are well, studies. GAO does not have subject matter experts. Think of grad students that go out and write a paper on something. Like I said, some good, some bad. Some really atrocious. One point to consider. It costs a lot of bucks to keep planes ready on the tarmac. Backups, maintenance, crews. And its boring. Some places like Alaska, yeah you get some launches. Most places you end up playing games. And remember, 9/11 was launched INTERNALLY. Anybody here want to shoot down an American airliner? Over the US? Thought not. And yeah, there are still NORAD or ADC sectors that take care of air traffic. Lots of them. I think it was Vanity Fair that broke the story on this when the tapes from the sector that dealt with NY and DC were declassified. Read through the transcripts, its like anything else, real time, nobody knows what's going on. Like we always used to joke, best Intel was from CNN. That's not too far from the truth. Bluntly, we don't need a lot of effort spent on this. It'll probably never happen again, and there are better ways to prevent it. OK, besides letting groups of Arab looking guys get on the same flight with box cutters. IF you look at what happened on 9/11 and where the system failed, I'm not going to say the US is doing much better on all this. At least El Al has professionals doing their flight screening. But we can't afford to do that. Or we will until the first quarter bill comes in. |
#10
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F-35, not F-22, to Protect U.S. Airspace
On Feb 2, 3:08*am, hcobb wrote:
On Feb 2, 6:45 am, 150flivver wrote: Exactly how was the Air Force supposed to prevent 9/11? *I guess the Air Force wasn't prepared to prevent the banking crisis or global warming either. Which service is it that's supposed to at least intercept hostile aircraft in American skies? Perhaps this also should be handed over to the USMC? -HJC 9/11 was a criminal act conducted by foreign criminals. Calling it war doesn't make it so. Law enforcement is something I don't want the military involved in. The FBI and CIA dropped the ball on this one, not the Air Force. Shooting down airliners filled with hostages/ citizens is something the Soviet Union would do, not what the USA does. |
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