Standardization in Slack Rope Recovery?

Most of us have had the inevitable frustration of being told to do something one way with one instructor, only to be told to do it differently when flying with another instructor. There are, of course, multiple ways of performing certain maneuvers, and slack rope recovery is one of those. I would like to hear feedback from the instructors here about which method they use, and why?

My personal experience of flying ASK-21s with instructors is that holding yaw until the slack comes out and continuing to hold yaw until the glider is back behind the tow plane works best for me. The air cushions the shock of the rope coming taut as the nose of the glider is pulled sideways through it. Holding yaw prevents a secondary loop of slack occurring. This method also worked well in my Libelle.

The other typical method of slack rope recovery is to yaw away until just before the slack is out and then diving toward the rope in an effort to more closely match the tow plane's speed. In my experience, this method is difficult to do well consistently, and often results in a secondary loop of slack.


Any comments?

Thanks,

Jeff

As a non-owner pilot, I have had my share of critiques from checkout instructors when asked to perform PTS-style maneuvers. my goal now is not to perform the maneuver correctly, but to please the CFI and make him feel like he's the most excellent CFI in the world. so before performing the maneuver, I ask how he wants it to be performed, and do it how he wants it. sad but true, its the best way to get through a checkout. --bob


On Sunday, January 31, 2016 at 9:29:23 AM UTC-5, LongJourney wrote:
Most of us have had the inevitable frustration of being told to do something one way with one instructor, only to be told to do it differently when flying with another instructor. There are, of course, multiple ways of performing certain maneuvers, and slack rope recovery is one of those. I would like to hear feedback from the instructors here about which method they use, and why?

My personal experience of flying ASK-21s with instructors is that holding yaw until the slack comes out and continuing to hold yaw until the glider is back behind the tow plane works best for me. The air cushions the shock of the rope coming taut as the nose of the glider is pulled sideways through it. Holding yaw prevents a secondary loop of slack occurring. This method also worked well in my Libelle.

The other typical method of slack rope recovery is to yaw away until just before the slack is out and then diving toward the rope in an effort to more closely match the tow plane's speed. In my experience, this method is difficult to do well consistently, and often results in a secondary loop of slack.


Any comments?

Thanks,

Jeff

On Sunday, January 31, 2016 at 9:29:23 AM UTC-5, LongJourney wrote:
Most of us have had the inevitable frustration of being told to do something one way with one instructor, only to be told to do it differently when flying with another instructor. There are, of course, multiple ways of performing certain maneuvers, and slack rope recovery is one of those. I would like to hear feedback from the instructors here about which method they use, and why?

My personal experience of flying ASK-21s with instructors is that holding yaw until the slack comes out and continuing to hold yaw until the glider is back behind the tow plane works best for me. The air cushions the shock of the rope coming taut as the nose of the glider is pulled sideways through it. Holding yaw prevents a secondary loop of slack occurring. This method also worked well in my Libelle.

The other typical method of slack rope recovery is to yaw away until just before the slack is out and then diving toward the rope in an effort to more closely match the tow plane's speed. In my experience, this method is difficult to do well consistently, and often results in a secondary loop of slack.


Any comments?

Thanks,

Jeff

If the degree of yaw used is proper, no diving or other action is required to avoid a big yank. Smoothness and gentle correction are important elements that need to be taught.
UH

On Sunday, January 31, 2016 at 8:28:58 AM UTC-7, Bob Pasker wrote:
Bob Pasker,
I think you are missing the point the original poster was asking about. Each instructor may have a point they are trying to get across. We can probably all say that we have learned something from just about every CFIG we have flown with. I would also say that I have seen tow pilots do some interesting things and my recovery will depend on what the towplane is doing, whether I am high or low, what type of ship I am in, etc.. Why would you "Not perform the maneuver correctly" during a checkout? Please post and tell us some of the "Incorrect" slack recoveries you have been taught.
Thanks

Slack line needs to be controlled by the glider pilot, varying methods apply. Match tow direction, match tow speed, use drag devices (yaw, spoilers) as needed. Do not over run the tow plane and do not get entangled in the rope. If you chose to release make sure you are not in a position to get smacked by the tow ring.

The idea is a slow reduction of the slack loop, need to match the tow plane speed and he is now accelerating without the glider drag, adding to the problem.

Not all gliders have nose tow or tost connections. Can't always rely on the rope pulling the nose sideways to buffer the tension in the rope.
Why put a side load on a Schweizer style hook. Slack coming out slow, ok. Line coming out fast, not so good. That tension and shock of the line becoming taught should go down the longitudinal axis of the glider, plus the tension has a bungee effect with most ropes. Schweizer gliders with the hook on the chin will pull the nose up.

CG hooks and additional issues. Most pilots will graduate to single seat gliders with no instructor to help. Train for the single seat glass. First learned is what is remembered in a panic. Large slack loops on CG, it could back release from the rope drag, are you in a position to not get smacked by the ring?

Nose pointed away from the tow plane when it comes tight, you can't match tow speed and direction that way, and when the line comes tight the rope has to move the whole glider sideways "through the yaw", not just nose tension.. Greater chance of a rope break, and with increased tension the glider will accelerate in the direction it is pointing. Not pointing towards tow? You're headed off accelerating on a tangent to the direction of tow.

Big problem I have with students and a slack line, normally the glider is out of position off to the side and they want to get back behind the tow plane. Now the big loop is below the nose where they cannot see it or judge how quickly the loop is shrinking if at all. How are you to manage that?

I had one student get us into a bad situation in a hurry with a naturally created slack line in turbulence in a turn. Not instructor induced.
My recovery was "MY GLIDER!", turned inside the turn, got a wing up over the loop, with a big loop I could see going horizontal back to the tow plane.
Pull the release and tighten the turn away from tow. The line and ring goes away from us and does not snap back towards us.

Bottom line, I vote for controlling the loop and slow recovery, don't rush it. Match the direction and speed of tow as it comes out. Cannot always rely on yaw, nose hooks, to control the bungee effect. Can't match speed if you are pointed away from tow. Keep the rope where you can see it. If it goes bad in a hurry, control when you decide to release so you don't get smacked by the ring.

BillT

As far as "right" is concerned.. from the Commercial PTS:

D. TASK: AEROTOW - SLACK LINE
REFERENCE: FAA-H-8083-13.
Objective. To determine that the applicant:
1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to the causes, hazards, and corrections related to slack line.
2. Recognizes slack line and applies immediate, positive, and smooth corrective action to eliminate slack line in various situations.

A few years back I had this same discussion with a highly respected Master CFI out in colorado, and we came up with at least 7 different methods that people had quotes as the "right" way. IMHO, the answer is that it really does depend on the tow speed, glider (configuration, performance and hook position), and environment. The four methods I have used and teach a

1. USAFA Method - Freeze it, Face it, Fix it. Essentially stop the towplane picture from getting any worse, point your nose directly at the towplane tail hook, and slightly lower the nose to maintain speed while the tow takes up the slack. If performed incorrectly, this can lead to secondary slack lines. Also cannot easily be performed while in a turn.

2. 2-33 or Draggy trainer method - Wait. Just keep flying nice and level behind the tow, and the drag on the ship will naturally catch up. N/A for rotor or moderate to severe turbulence or if unable to follow the tow.

3. Yaw away method - Maintain the same altitude as the tow, and sustain an off-center yaw angle until the slackline starts to come out. As the line becomes taught, reduce the rudder input to allow the nose to be corrected by the towplane. It is certainly the sloppiest way to get the job done, but is effective in cushioning the slackline out.

4. Drag Devices - Tactical use of spoilers in egregious slacklines can be very effective in turning a glass ship into the situation of #2. Again, however, over-use of the spoilers can cause too high of a speed differential and cause secondary slack lines or break the rope. If i use this method, it is generally in order to more effectively set up one of the other methods. With flapped ships, adding positive flap can help increase drag to serve this purpose, but can complicate your altitude alignment due to the additional lift.

For what it's worth.
Chris

On Sunday, January 31, 2016 at 6:35:59 PM UTC-6, Bill T wrote:
Slack line needs to be controlled by the glider pilot, varying methods apply. Match tow direction, match tow speed, use drag devices (yaw, spoilers) as needed. Do not over run the tow plane and do not get entangled in the rope. If you chose to release make sure you are not in a position to get smacked by the tow ring.

The idea is a slow reduction of the slack loop, need to match the tow plane speed and he is now accelerating without the glider drag, adding to the problem.

Not all gliders have nose tow or tost connections. Can't always rely on the rope pulling the nose sideways to buffer the tension in the rope.
Why put a side load on a Schweizer style hook. Slack coming out slow, ok. Line coming out fast, not so good. That tension and shock of the line becoming taught should go down the longitudinal axis of the glider, plus the tension has a bungee effect with most ropes. Schweizer gliders with the hook on the chin will pull the nose up.

CG hooks and additional issues. Most pilots will graduate to single seat gliders with no instructor to help. Train for the single seat glass. First learned is what is remembered in a panic. Large slack loops on CG, it could back release from the rope drag, are you in a position to not get smacked by the ring?

Nose pointed away from the tow plane when it comes tight, you can't match tow speed and direction that way, and when the line comes tight the rope has to move the whole glider sideways "through the yaw", not just nose tension. Greater chance of a rope break, and with increased tension the glider will accelerate in the direction it is pointing. Not pointing towards tow? You're headed off accelerating on a tangent to the direction of tow.

Big problem I have with students and a slack line, normally the glider is out of position off to the side and they want to get back behind the tow plane. Now the big loop is below the nose where they cannot see it or judge how quickly the loop is shrinking if at all. How are you to manage that?

I had one student get us into a bad situation in a hurry with a naturally created slack line in turbulence in a turn. Not instructor induced.
My recovery was "MY GLIDER!", turned inside the turn, got a wing up over the loop, with a big loop I could see going horizontal back to the tow plane.
Pull the release and tighten the turn away from tow. The line and ring goes away from us and does not snap back towards us.

Bottom line, I vote for controlling the loop and slow recovery, don't rush it. Match the direction and speed of tow as it comes out. Cannot always rely on yaw, nose hooks, to control the bungee effect. Can't match speed if you are pointed away from tow. Keep the rope where you can see it. If it goes bad in a hurry, control when you decide to release so you don't get smacked by the ring.

BillT

One argument that I really don't understand is why would there be less chance of breaking the tow line when ALL of the force is applied to the tow line, which is the case when pointing the nose at the tow plane's tail, than when the blow is cushioned by the air when the nose is pulled through it?

I flew with an instructor a few months ago who asked me to use the "point the nose at the tow plane" method of slack line recovery. The result was a large jolt and a secondary loop of slack. I said, "Let's try it my way." I yawed away and held it until we had been pulled back behind the tow plane. The result was a gentle jolt when the line came taut, and no secondary loop of slack. The instructor was quiet for a moment, then said, "Okay, we'll do it your way."

On Monday, February 1, 2016 at 9:30:10 AM UTC-5, LongJourney wrote:
On Sunday, January 31, 2016 at 6:35:59 PM UTC-6, Bill T wrote:
Slack line needs to be controlled by the glider pilot, varying methods apply. Match tow direction, match tow speed, use drag devices (yaw, spoilers) as needed. Do not over run the tow plane and do not get entangled in the rope. If you chose to release make sure you are not in a position to get smacked by the tow ring.

The idea is a slow reduction of the slack loop, need to match the tow plane speed and he is now accelerating without the glider drag, adding to the problem.

Not all gliders have nose tow or tost connections. Can't always rely on the rope pulling the nose sideways to buffer the tension in the rope.
Why put a side load on a Schweizer style hook. Slack coming out slow, ok. Line coming out fast, not so good. That tension and shock of the line becoming taught should go down the longitudinal axis of the glider, plus the tension has a bungee effect with most ropes. Schweizer gliders with the hook on the chin will pull the nose up.

CG hooks and additional issues. Most pilots will graduate to single seat gliders with no instructor to help. Train for the single seat glass. First learned is what is remembered in a panic. Large slack loops on CG, it could back release from the rope drag, are you in a position to not get smacked by the ring?

Nose pointed away from the tow plane when it comes tight, you can't match tow speed and direction that way, and when the line comes tight the rope has to move the whole glider sideways "through the yaw", not just nose tension. Greater chance of a rope break, and with increased tension the glider will accelerate in the direction it is pointing. Not pointing towards tow? You're headed off accelerating on a tangent to the direction of tow.

Big problem I have with students and a slack line, normally the glider is out of position off to the side and they want to get back behind the tow plane. Now the big loop is below the nose where they cannot see it or judge how quickly the loop is shrinking if at all. How are you to manage that?

I had one student get us into a bad situation in a hurry with a naturally created slack line in turbulence in a turn. Not instructor induced.
My recovery was "MY GLIDER!", turned inside the turn, got a wing up over the loop, with a big loop I could see going horizontal back to the tow plane.
Pull the release and tighten the turn away from tow. The line and ring goes away from us and does not snap back towards us.

Bottom line, I vote for controlling the loop and slow recovery, don't rush it. Match the direction and speed of tow as it comes out. Cannot always rely on yaw, nose hooks, to control the bungee effect. Can't match speed if you are pointed away from tow. Keep the rope where you can see it. If it goes bad in a hurry, control when you decide to release so you don't get smacked by the ring.

BillT

One argument that I really don't understand is why would there be less chance of breaking the tow line when ALL of the force is applied to the tow line, which is the case when pointing the nose at the tow plane's tail, than when the blow is cushioned by the air when the nose is pulled through it?

I flew with an instructor a few months ago who asked me to use the "point the nose at the tow plane" method of slack line recovery. The result was a large jolt and a secondary loop of slack. I said, "Let's try it my way." I yawed away and held it until we had been pulled back behind the tow plane. The result was a gentle jolt when the line came taut, and no secondary loop of slack. The instructor was quiet for a moment, then said, "Okay, we'll do it your way."

I agree with you and it is what I was taught (yaw away from the slack).
Granted, a 2-33 has a lot more side area to help soften the shock when the slack comes out (compared to a single seat glass ship), but remember the TOWPLANE also has significant side area.
Thus, when the slack comes out, you have two aircraft pivoting sideways to remove the shock, not just one.
When the rope is taut (slack has come out), both aircraft are basically aligned and the rudder correction can be removed on the glider end.

While it may be helpful to understand what the examiner/instructor wants to see (as mentioned earlier), I think a "gentle nudge" using the yaw method would be worthwhile if they're looking for something else.

PS, as with anything, even doing the correct "method" can go wrong if over-done or done incorrectly.

One argument that I really don't understand is why would there be less chance of breaking the tow line when ALL of the force is applied to the tow line, which is the case when pointing the nose at the tow plane's tail, than when the blow is cushioned by the air when the nose is pulled through it?

I don't think that that is a valid argument at all... If properly executed, pointing at the tow plane will be a cleaner, smoother recovery.

I would put it akin to British automobiles (my first car was a '78 spitfire). When everything is going correctly, it is smooth and elegant. When something in the process breaks, the whole thing can get wonky in a hurry.

Chris

good catch

I should have said that I am "less interested in performing the maneuver the way I was taught and the way I did it on my checkride, than I am in pleasing the CFI"


On Sunday, January 31, 2016 at 12:36:02 PM UTC-5, K m wrote:
On Sunday, January 31, 2016 at 8:28:58 AM UTC-7, Bob Pasker wrote:
Bob Pasker,
Why would you "Not perform the maneuver correctly" during a checkout? Please post and tell us some of the "Incorrect" slack recoveries you have been taught.
Thanks