Puchaz Spinning thread that might be of interest in light of the recent accident.

(Mark James Boyd) wrote in message news:40155d2a$1@darkstar...

For you cowboys at a bijillion feet at 25% from aft C.G.
torquing it up tight in a thermal way over gross with ballast
in your schmancy gliders without a hint of stall warning...

Mark, come to the dark side...

(Deep raspy breathing - a well used cannula perhaps)

Oops, got to go find some lead to put in my tail; that pesky CG is
trying to creep in front of the rudder pedals again...BAD CG! Go back
where you belong!

Seriously, if you want to try out a nice spinning US glider, get some
time in a 2-32 with a QUALIFIED spin instructor - that lovely hunk of
tin will absolutely water your eyes out of a cross-controlled skidding
base-to-final spin setup! No warning, and YEE-HAA there you are
staring at the ground.

Lots of fun (at altitude with parachutes, of course).

Kirk

Very funny Paul. I heard they do it at 500-1000 ft (for rope
breaks)...Which is confirmed by the accident reports.
Always resulting from one of these low altitude spins.


"Paul Repacholi" wrote in message
...
"Arnold Pieper" writes:


The Puchacz is used for low altitude spin training more than
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

What is this? Below 10,000 feet?

--
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+61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda.
West Australia 6076
comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot
Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.
EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.

Kirk Stant wrote:
(Mark James Boyd) wrote in message news:40155d2a$1@darkstar...


For you cowboys at a bijillion feet at 25% from aft C.G.
torquing it up tight in a thermal way over gross with ballast
in your schmancy gliders without a hint of stall warning...


Mark, come to the dark side...

(Deep raspy breathing - a well used cannula perhaps)

Oops, got to go find some lead to put in my tail; that pesky CG is
trying to creep in front of the rudder pedals again...BAD CG! Go back
where you belong!

Wasn't that the Christmas eggnog?


Seriously, if you want to try out a nice spinning US glider, get some
time in a 2-32 with a QUALIFIED spin instructor - that lovely hunk of
tin will absolutely water your eyes out of a cross-controlled skidding
base-to-final spin setup! No warning, and YEE-HAA there you are
staring at the ground.

Just did my first spins in a 2-32 a month ago. Yee-Haw! is right!.
I've done the shallow bank cross control entry in a Blanik too. I think
it made the impression the instructor wanted. :-0

Shawn

I'm also no instructor, but a personal experience converted me to spin
training.

As a low time solo pilot I went and joined a club a long way from home,
but in a very scenic part of the country. It's a very pleasant place to
spend a weekend and I was keen to get let loose in one of the club planes.

The CFI has a display licence and a penchant for aerobatics. He is also
an exceptionally good instructor. We went up on a check flight after
flying a few times with the other instructors. After a couple of minutes
of scratching in very weak thermals I decided it was not working and set
up for a nice safe circuit. High Key point at 1000" AGL and all very
propper in the K13.

Said hoary instructor then says, there's a bird circling, lets see if we
can join it, it is only just off the chosen circuit, a little over the
dam, so I enter a nice slow turn under the bird. (Starting to be
predictable isn't it) At this point, at 900" the CFI waits till I look
up at the bird (and get the yaw string out) and feeds in a tiny bit of
into turn rudder. I only had time to wonder whether it was a gust or him
moving in his seat before there was a momentary burble from the wingroot
and the canopy was full of ground and dam...

Having been trained in spin avoidance and recovery, I straightened it up
and got us back into the circuit , somewhat lower and more shaken than
stirred.

I'd learned to fly on Bergfalkes which have a particularly ineffectual
rudder, so was overdoing it in the K13, and had not appreciated quite
how close I had come before. Said CFI and I had a quiet discussion about
the flight, and then I got sent up solo in the K13, a lot safer than I
had been.

Lessons for me:
Even docile old ladies can be grumpy and won't always give you enough
warning to take corrective measures. Particularly in an unfamiliar
aircraft and or situation - you may miss or misinterpret the early
warnings.
Don't make assumptions - What felt normal for the Bergie, was pre-stall
buffet in the K13.
Most importantly - spin entry can be quite unobtrusive, just like in my
single seater trying to core that bumpy little thermal...

These days I tend to carry a little more speed, and I never assume I'm
competent to avoid a spin.

Chris,

Spin training comes right along Stall training. Impending spins first, then
fully developed spins.
Recovery from an impending stall/spin might sometime be as simple as
reducing back pressure and making slight opposite rudder pressure, all the
while continuing the turn. In other words, it may not be necessary to dive
like a rock in the middle of a gaggle because you sense an impending spin.
A fully developed spin on the other hand (such as one resulting from a
cross-controled, or wings-level, skidding turn), may require much more
positive and effective use of anti-spin controls (full opposite rudder and
stick forward). It all depends on the glider and the position of the pitch
trim, some will recover from the spin if you simply let go of the controls.

But spins have to be repeated several times as the student builds-up time,
especially before first soloing any new type of glider, and then on every
BFR. The student will then see all of these different scenarios as his
training progresses.

This is the only way to be safe : With the student having a full
understanding of the different ways it can happen and the different ways to
recover.

"Chris OCallaghan" wrote in message
om...
Thanks Arnold, for the clarification.

Do you supplement your spin training with conditioning exercises to
reinforce the prompt movement forward of the stick at the first sign
of an iminent stall? Repeated spin entries could condition a student
to await the stall break, since we are intentionally trying to develop
a spin, recognize it, and recover. "Hold it back. Good. Feed in some
rudder to skid the turn. Good. Now try to pick up the dropping wing.
Good..." This could unintentionally program a student to await the
stall break rather than reacting instinctively to a prestall by
immediately lowering angle of attack.

Where do you put your spin training in the syllabus? And do you demand
stall onset recognition before and revisit after?

Chris OC

[countertroll]

Ian,

the point of my link was to show that you will not spin from
coordinated flight. If you want to spin, at some point you'll need to
make a yaw movement, either with rudder or aileron, and for most
gliders, some of each. If the yaw string stays straight throughout the
stall break, there isn't enough yaw motion to achieve autorotation.

I suspect those who think they can enter a spin from balanced flight
have one of two things happening:

1. They are misusing the controls at the moment of the stall break,
creating yaw through aileron drag by instinctively trying to lift the
dropping wing, or by feeding in rudder. In either case, these are very
bad habits if done unconsciously.

2. They are entering spiral dives and misidentifying them as insipient
spins. Since the insipient phase looks much the same this isn't
surprising, and one can recover early in the spiral dive with the same
control inputs used for spin recovery; however, recognition and
appropriate response will save many feet of altitude loss.

This is worth thinking through. If a sailplane can spin from
coordinated flight, then at any given moment you are at risk of losing
500 to 1000 feet in a matter of seconds. This is based on the notion
that you have absolutely no control over the process save recognition
and recovery. But your use of the controls are of paramount importance
during an unexpected stall, the result of turbulence or distraction.
If your instinctive reaction is to nuetralize the controls, you've
removed the aggrevation that will take an aircraft past its "tipping"
point into autorotation. This is the classic compromise between
stability and controlability.

If we flew aircraft so unstable they could enter a spin without
control inputs, we'd all be hard pressed to justify the risks we would
face while flying.

"Ian Johnston" wrote in message news:cCUlhtvFIYkV-pn2-O04tsSrmcyTw@localhost...
On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 16:59:56 UTC, (Chris
OCallaghan) wrote:

: To review the importance of coordination in spin avoidance

Personally I rather like the spin entries from balanced flight. Very
thrilling.

Ian

--

I spoke today with the British Gliding Association (with Barry Rolfe, the
long serving employed full time Secretary and Administrator).

I also received a message today in reply to questions of mine to the
Department of Transport, Air Accidents Investigation Branch.

From these communications and others I have seen, my conclusion is:

No-one is yet prepared to say how or why the Puchacz crashed. In
particular, no-one will confirm that a stall-spin was involved; assumptions
that the glider was spinning are speculation and rumour.

The accident is being investigated by the AAIB, therefore when the report is
completed it will be published by them in their monthly printed report and
on-line at www.aaib.gov.uk , go to Bulletins
http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/group...cst?n=5254&l=2 .
The report will be included under the month and year of the date of the
report, not the date of the accident.

There have been four previous fatal accidents in the U.K. involving a
Puchacz. None of these were investigated by the AAIB, therefore the
reports are not available from the AAIB, the reports would have been
prepared by the BGA. No BGA accident reports are available on-line.

The previous 4 Puchacz accidents all involved stall/spinning.

I should mention that I personally am not, and never have been involved in
any capacity with the BGA sub-groups who deal with Accident Investigation,
Safety, Instruction or Technical matters.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.


"Al" wrote in message
...
http://www.gliderforum.com/thread-vi...id=167&start=1

This might be of interest when discussing the Puch and its spinning.

Condolences to the family and friends of the victims of the recent crash.

Regards

Al

"Vaughn" wrote:

snip

Unless you are already CFIG, you are always 'working on a rating' when
flying dual with a (current) CFIG. No parachutes needed for spinning.
And no, as I said, he did not turn me down because of the lack of a
chute.

Wrong. This is a very optimistic intrepetation of the FARs that I have
heard before, I doubt that it would fly with the FAA. If you don't have a
commercial, you are not "working on your CFI".


snip

Actually Vaugn, you are wrong. Parachutes are not required for spin
training. This issue is addressed by the FAA in the Frequently Asked
Questions section of their web site. Below is a copy of the question
and answer. (The URL for the entire FAQ document is:
http://av-info.faa.gov/data/640otherfaq/pt61-17.pdf )

FAQs Part 61 With Chg #17, 08/22/2002
All Q&A’s from #1 through #522
FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS
14 CFR, PART 61
ARRANGED BY SECTION
MAINTAINED BY ALLAN PINKSTON
PILOT EXAMINER STANDARDIZATION TEAM, AFS-640
Contact: Allan Pinkston phone: (405) 954 - 6472
E-Mail:


QUESTION: Situation is, I am a flight instructor and I have a student
who is a Private Pilot and is rated in a
single-engine land airplane. This pilot is not seeking any further
rating, but wants me to give him flight training on
"stall awareness, spin entry, spins, and spin recovery techniques"
just like it says in §61.105. The question is,
under §91.307(c) are parachutes required for this kind of training?
ANSWER: §61.105; No parachute is required. Historically the FAA’s
position on this issue, we have
determined since this training is a private pilot requirement that is
addressed in §61.105 as an aeronautical
knowledge training area and the person is merely receiving training on
a piloting skill that is a pilot certification
requirement for receiving, and for maintaining, that private pilot
certificate, parachutes are NOT required. The
rationale of this determination, also covers student pilots,
commercial pilots, airline transport pilots, and flight
instructors. But as always, the FAA would never discourage the use of
parachutes.
{Q&A-136}

On 26 Jan 2004 14:29:29 GMT, "Ian Johnston"
wrote:

On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 00:15:20 UTC, Mike Borgelt
wrote:

: Many experienced pilots I know flat out refuse to do full spins during
: annual checks as being an unnecessary risk. They will happily
: demonstrate stalls and incipient spins.

I would hate to have somebody as nervous about their flying skills as
that above me in a thermal.

Ian


It is called risk management. They fly gliders to go soaring not to do
aerobatics. Most of them have thousands of hours of flying cross
country and in competition. They consider it far riskier to do spins
in gliders of uncertain history with instructors of little experience
and training who typically seem to them to demonstrate dangerous
overconfidence.

And they won't spin down on you from above.

Some of the attitudes revealed in this thread make me despair that
anything will ever happen to improve the soaring safety record.

Mike Borgelt

On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 18:56:36 -0700, "Bill Daniels"
wrote:


Asked about the delay in recovery, the pilot said that the standard recovery
technique used in the powered aircraft he had been flying was just to
reverse the rudder and to keep the stick aft of center. I pointed out that
every glider I knew of required forward stick for a sure recovery. (We did
several more spins until we both were comfortable with his spin recovery
technique.)

I think the take-home lesson is that airplanes can spin more benignly than
gliders. Relying on spin training in airplanes is just not always
appropriate and can leave the pilot with misconceptions about glider spin
recovery.

I think the gentleman's spin recovery training was suspect. Since when
was standard spin recovery other than:

Full opposite rudder
Pause
Move the stick forward
When the spin stops centralise rudder and recover gently from the
dive?

Even if the aircraft recovers with mere application of opposite rudder
surely the full standard recovery must be taught?

The fatality in the Blanik here a few years ago was that the spin
became a spiral so even the Blanik won't necessarily stay in a spin.

I think that, if you fly gliders that will spin, it is wise to experience
the spin recovery at least once and preferably more often than that.

As I said I agree. Note however you cannot do this in all types that
you fly. Some like the Standard Libelle and Nimbus 3DM are placarded
against deliberate spins.

That said, there is nothing wrong with basic training that emphasizes
recognition of an incipient spin over spin recovery. Recognition that a
spin is imminent, and knowledge of the technique to prevent it, will save
more lives than expert spin recovery.

So, is spin training dangerous? Yes, but much less dangerous than not doing
spin training. The path from novice to expert is sometimes fraught with
peril but remaining a novice is more dangerous still. The Puch, Blanik, and
Lark spin more like the glass gliders most of us fly. As such, they are
excellent trainers. Just choose an instructor that is very experienced with
them.

Bill Daniels

When two testpilot/spin instructors, at least one of whom had
extensive spin experience in gliders can kill themselves in a Puch by
spinning in I wonder how much experience the instructor has to have?

The experienced cross country pilots I know never spin accidently. At
most they may get a wing drop in a thermal. The question is what do
they know or do that prevents them from ever spinning accidently?
If we find this out we might make some progress.

Mike