WGC Open Design Comparison

On Tuesday, August 21, 2012 9:24:55 AM UTC-5, (unknown) wrote:
On Tuesday, August 21, 2012 2:19:02 PM UTC+1, John Cochrane wrote: On Aug 21, 7:54*am, Mike the Strike wrote: It is well-known that the US scores high on cultural scales of individualism, especially compared with Europe, and even in team games scores each individual competitor. *Team flying is seen as one notch away from communism and will never happen here in contests. *That's why the Europeans often win! Mike Cultural explanations are too easy. US pilots will do what it takes to win. The US team has put huge effort in to team flying in the past three years. Look at the start times. OK, no great results this time around, but that's not from some cultural aversion to team flying. The US has rules against team flying in our national contests. These were put in many years ago, not in praise of "individualism" but because it was felt that the presence of teams of top pilots would discourage "little guy" participation. That issue is constantly under review, and will be on the upcoming pilot opinion poll. Again. If US pilots want to team fly, just say so loudly on the opinion poll. It will happen as soon as pilots want it. (Especially if the "little guys" write in and say this won't discourage them) I actually think team flying is a lot of fun, and might encourage people to come to contests. But we have to hear from pilots on this. Meanwhile the IGC talks frequently about taking steps to limit team flying, such as only one pilot per country, but never does anything about it. I guess countries who are good at it like to keep the rules the way they are. It's not about culture. It's about rules. Same with gaggling. IGC rules make gaggling, start roulette and leaching a mandatory part of contest flying. US rules make those strategies much less important. (This is in the distance/speed formulas, day devaluation rules, and guidance on assigned vs. area tasks. US formulas and prevalence of assigned tasks make tactical flying much less important) The result is, much less tactical flying in the US. That is, I think, a bigger part of why we don't do so well at worlds than team flying. And IMHO makes US contest flying much more fun. But it has nothing to do with culture, it's just an outcome of the rules. Take those "collectivist" or "cooperative" europeans, who seem to like to gaggle and play start games, put them in a race with different rules, like the grand prix, and all of a sudden they take on a risk- taking individualist streak that would embarrass the most redneck American! John Cochrane It's about rules, not culture. Two pilots are gathering more information about soaring conditions than one. Team flying and individual flying are different skills, so let's have contests with either, or perhaps even both. To be scored in the individual contest you just need a rule which says that two pilots representing the same country can't start within, say, 20 minutes (maybe more?) of one another, and that managers must demonstrate that one of their pilots is not acting as sacrificial for the other. Iain Murdoch

Peter Harvey, Team GB, was the only British open class pilot and did very well on his own. He had the fastest task speed in an Antares 23 and was 5th overall, winning 3 days.

On Tuesday, August 21, 2012 12:10:08 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Peter Harvey, Team GB, was the only British open class pilot
and did very well on his own. He had the fastest task speed in an
Antares 23 and was 5th overall, winning 3 days.

And only pilot to break 100mph.

On Monday, August 20, 2012 2:33:48 PM UTC-5, François Hersen wrote:
An another view, just for the first place in open class;

Quintus; 2
EB29; 3
JS1 C; 3
Antares; 3
Concirdia; 1

In strong conditions, 23 meters gliders have an avantage, RC

Correction and comments. Correction: Concordia won 2 days. Comment: the two slowest winning speeds in Open Class were both days won by the JS1-C. So, maybe we haven't seen the threshold for 21 meters being too little for Open Class?

Also, John C, Open Class used to be the 750 KG Class. Until, I believe, Eta came along. They were barely able to stay under 750KG if they put two people onboard, so the rule was changed to allow some planes to go to 850 KG, but with other requirements (I believe you had to self launch if you were flying at anything over 750 KG). As to "revitalizing", we will see how pilots like being towed at 12 plus psf wing loadings by towplanes that don't like to tow at 90 MPH.

Steve Leonard
ZL Crew at FAI WGC 2012

On Tuesday, August 21, 2012 6:12:11 AM UTC-7, Ron Gleason wrote:
On Monday, 20 August 2012 23:37:12 UTC-6, Darryl Ramm wrote:

On Monday, August 20, 2012 10:05:29 PM UTC-7, Ron Gleason wrote:



On Monday, 20 August 2012 16:40:44 UTC-6, Brad Alston wrote:







Dave Nadler;821793 Wrote:















On Monday, August 20, 2012 2:09:57 PM UTC-4, Gary Osoba wrote:-















With all the drama in the 2012 WGC Open Class, here's how the various































designs compared by total average points, followed by the total number































of ships flown through the end of the contest (for calculating































statistical variance):































































11427 JS-1C (4)































11316 Concordia (1)































11240 EB-29 (2)































11089 Quintus (7)































11069 Antares 23 (1)































10339 Nimbus 4 (2)































9977 EB-28 (4)































8962 ASH-25 (1) Another damaged and withdrew































7631 ASW-22BL































































I did not include powered models as separate designs since the ships































were all in high ballast most of the contest. Obviously, designs with































only 1 or 2 gliders in the contest can vary statistically much more,































i.e. it might not be a good idea to bet against 4 or 5 Concordia's.































The Antares 23 and Quintus share the same wing, and should be very































similar in performance. Pilots in the top two designs above were































essentially learning to fly them during the contest, and that may be































true for several of the other pilot/ship combinations. I did not have































the opportunity to speak with many of the pilots.































































The numbers are for this contest only, and its conditions, flown by































the respective pilots, etc., etc. Further disclaimer- I do not have an































affiliation with any of the makers, nor have I owned a glider produced































by any of them. Just the numbers.































































An interesting design revolution is going on here. Feel free to































correct if I got anything wrong.































































Best Regards,































































Gary Osoba-















































Were all the JS-1 flown in open class the new "C"















stretch model, or were some of them "B" 18-meter ?















Score-sheet shows some B models IIRC ?































See ya, Dave































Sorry, this is a bit off topic of design...































I am not a competition pilot so my question are out of total















ignorance...please forgive. I enjoyed following the 2012 WGC online very















much.































The one thing I notice as the days progressed was that it seemed, and















totally anecdotal of course, was that pilots from the same country















finished very close to each other. Could it be that team flying















techniques are more refined outside the U.S.?...thus giving the















advantage of having at least two ships, instead of one,















finding/utilizing the best lift lines to the benefit of the team. Is















that sort of thing common practice in these sorts of contests? Do the















U.S. pilots get a chance to develop their team flying skills?































Brad.















































































--















Brad Alston















The glider models designations for the JS-1's are accurate on the score sheets. Exact gliders models were listed after Leo submitted to scoring the correct designation. For open they are listed JS1-C and 18 meter are JS-1B.















Ron Gleason







Just to be clear, a JS-1C does not mean 21m, they can fly with 18m wings as well. The C is basically the stronger wing to allow the 21m option. It would be nice to use nomeclature that make the span perfectly clear, like JS-1C-18m, JS-1C-21m etc.







Darryl



look the open class score sheets, it states JS-1C 21. I entered the data myself when Leo requested the change.

Ron, great. I have no idea what I looked at that was different, maybe an old cached version in my browser?

Thanks

Darryl

Originally Posted by

On Tuesday, August 21, 2012 2:19:02 PM UTC+1, John Cochrane wrote:
On Aug 21, 7:54*am, Mike the Strike wrote:

It is well-known that the US scores high on cultural scales of individualism, especially compared with Europe, and even in team games scores each individual competitor. *Team flying is seen as one notch away from communism and will never happen here in contests. *That's why the Europeans often win!



Mike



Cultural explanations are too easy. US pilots will do what it takes to

win. The US team has put huge effort in to team flying in the past

three years. Look at the start times. OK, no great results this time

around, but that's not from some cultural aversion to team flying.



The US has rules against team flying in our national contests. These

were put in many years ago, not in praise of "individualism" but

because it was felt that the presence of teams of top pilots would

discourage "little guy" participation. That issue is constantly under

review, and will be on the upcoming pilot opinion poll. Again. If US

pilots want to team fly, just say so loudly on the opinion poll. It

will happen as soon as pilots want it. (Especially if the "little

guys" write in and say this won't discourage them) I actually think

team flying is a lot of fun, and might encourage people to come to

contests. But we have to hear from pilots on this.



Meanwhile the IGC talks frequently about taking steps to limit team

flying, such as only one pilot per country, but never does anything

about it. I guess countries who are good at it like to keep the rules

the way they are.



It's not about culture. It's about rules. Same with gaggling. IGC

rules make gaggling, start roulette and leaching a mandatory part of

contest flying. US rules make those strategies much less important.

(This is in the distance/speed formulas, day devaluation rules, and

guidance on assigned vs. area tasks. US formulas and prevalence of

assigned tasks make tactical flying much less important) The result

is, much less tactical flying in the US. That is, I think, a bigger

part of why we don't do so well at worlds than team flying. And IMHO

makes US contest flying much more fun. But it has nothing to do with

culture, it's just an outcome of the rules.



Take those "collectivist" or "cooperative" europeans, who seem to like

to gaggle and play start games, put them in a race with different

rules, like the grand prix, and all of a sudden they take on a risk-

taking individualist streak that would embarrass the most redneck

American!



John Cochrane

It's about rules, not culture.
Two pilots are gathering more information about soaring conditions than one..
Team flying and individual flying are different skills, so let's have contests with either, or perhaps even both.

To be scored in the individual contest you just need a rule which says that two pilots representing the same country can't start within, say, 20 minutes (maybe more?) of one another, and that managers must demonstrate that one of their pilots is not acting as sacrificial for the other.

Iain Murdoch

Interesting. To me, again the non-competition pilot, the concept of rules determining flying techniques and potential outcomes seems logical...especially when couched as the development of "tactical flying" skills.

Thank you to those who responded and provided food for thought. I know it's not a simple issue and has many factors to consider. I find the idea of a "team only" competition, the allowance for teams, attractive. To me it would give "us new guys" an opportunity to learn from someone with experience (assuming those experienced guys would want to pair up with a newbie) and potential contribute to a successful outcome...but then again, I've enjoyed the concept of team sports for some time!

Thanks again for your responses!

After 13 days of racing there was only one overall winner in each class...

Open - Quintus
18M - ASG-29
15M - Diana 2

After 13 days of racing there was only one overall winner in each class...

Open - Laurent Aboulin
18m - Zbigniew Nieradka
15m - Sebastian Kawa


At 22:48 22 August 2012, wrote:
After 13 days of racing there was only one overall winner in each
class...

Open - Quintus
18M - ASG-29
15M - Diana 2