change in ADS-B rule interpretation!

On Tuesday, February 10, 2015 at 8:17:50 PM UTC-8, Bill T wrote:
Most GPS units in gliders may be WAAS compliant, but with the previous language they were not approved to provide adsb out because they do not have the TSO Certification.
BillT

Many consumer GPS chipset based GPS receivers in gliders may utilize WAAS/SBAS technology. But that is *very* different than what is meant by a IFW/WAAS GPS receiver like specified for example in TSO-C145 and the RTCA standards it incorporates.

I would be surprised if there is any GPS receivers installed in any glider gliders that is "WAAS Compliant" if that means TSO-C145, if not that then "compliant" to what standard?

Bill T wrote:
I believe that the GPS reciever still needs to be WAAS compliant to
provide ADSB out data. The key would be to approve portable ADSB out
devices, currently available for about $1500 with WAAS GPS built in, for
use in glider tow and gliders. It sure would save out club a heap of $$$
for the tow plane, we are under the class b shelf.

BillT

I am not aware of any ADS-B *Out* product priced at about $1,500 with or
without being portable or with or without a built-in "WAAS GPS".

I suspect you are confusing this ADS-B Out and ADS-B In. Portable ADS-B
*In* receivers typically include a consumer grade WAAS chipset to locate
the aircraft's own position on weather and traffic displays and to provide
location/navigation data for external PDA/PNA/tablet navigation software.

ADS-B Out in gliders and towplane provides little value over other options
that are actually available, installable and well understood today. If you
want glider-glider and glider-towplane collision avoidance technology
install a PowerFLARM. If you are concerned about other traffic, PowerFLARM
PCAS and ADS-B 1090ES In can help, as can installing a transponder...
especially if the concern is fast jets and airliners.

If you operate under a Class B shelf your towplane will already have a
transponder, and unfortunately will also be required to equip with ADS-B
Out by January 2020. If not already equipped with one you should look at a
Mode-S 1090ES Out compatible transponder like a Trig TT-22. UAT Out devices
would be a very bad idea in a towplane as they won't be seen on a
PowerFLARM.

And just today L3 announced more details of their L3 Lynx ADS-B products,
they do apparently include non-TSOed but TSO performance meeting GPS
devices... details are very thin. MSRP is $3,200 for a display less UAT Out
and In box (there is a cheaper UAT Out only box but no pricing yet) and
$6,800 for a Mode S/1090ES Out/1090ES In/UAT In box. All include a
built-in GPS source. The transponder packaging and power consumption are
likely to be quite unsuitable for use in gliders even if somebody wanted to
spend $6,800 plus installation costs. For the GA users this is targeted at
these products may be compelling, especially for older aircraft not
equipped with an IFR/WAAS GPS and an old (high risk if needing repair)
transponder. And I expect prices to drop further as 2020 approaches.

L3 refer to the included internal GPS in these devices as a "Rule Compliant
Position Source"... in other words that GPS is not TSOed but does "meet the
performance requirements of..." (likely TSO-C145c). So you do see effects
of that all that CFR14 91 "meets performance of..." wording here, no word I
could find on the actual TSO status of the boxes themselves. If L3 do not
TSO them expect a pile of confusion/arguments out there in GA A&P land...

On Wednesday, February 11, 2015 at 4:27:24 PM UTC-5, Darryl Ramm wrote:
Bill T wrote:
I believe that the GPS reciever still needs to be WAAS compliant to
provide ADSB out data. The key would be to approve portable ADSB out
devices, currently available for about $1500 with WAAS GPS built in, for
use in glider tow and gliders. It sure would save out club a heap of $$$
for the tow plane, we are under the class b shelf.

BillT

I am not aware of any ADS-B *Out* product priced at about $1,500 with or
without being portable or with or without a built-in "WAAS GPS".

I suspect you are confusing this ADS-B Out and ADS-B In. Portable ADS-B
*In* receivers typically include a consumer grade WAAS chipset to locate
the aircraft's own position on weather and traffic displays and to provide
location/navigation data for external PDA/PNA/tablet navigation software.

ADS-B Out in gliders and towplane provides little value over other options
that are actually available, installable and well understood today. If you
want glider-glider and glider-towplane collision avoidance technology
install a PowerFLARM. If you are concerned about other traffic, PowerFLARM
PCAS and ADS-B 1090ES In can help, as can installing a transponder...
especially if the concern is fast jets and airliners.

If you operate under a Class B shelf your towplane will already have a
transponder, and unfortunately will also be required to equip with ADS-B
Out by January 2020. If not already equipped with one you should look at a
Mode-S 1090ES Out compatible transponder like a Trig TT-22. UAT Out devices
would be a very bad idea in a towplane as they won't be seen on a
PowerFLARM.

PowerFLARM would be a great solution if it supported TIS-B and was coupled with an ADS-B OUT solution. Without TIS-B support, I'm totally uninterested.

Mike Schumann wrote:
On Wednesday, February 11, 2015 at 4:27:24 PM UTC-5, Darryl Ramm wrote:
Bill T wrote:
I believe that the GPS reciever still needs to be WAAS compliant to
provide ADSB out data. The key would be to approve portable ADSB out
devices, currently available for about $1500 with WAAS GPS built in, for
use in glider tow and gliders. It sure would save out club a heap of $$$
for the tow plane, we are under the class b shelf.

BillT

I am not aware of any ADS-B *Out* product priced at about $1,500 with or
without being portable or with or without a built-in "WAAS GPS".

I suspect you are confusing this ADS-B Out and ADS-B In. Portable ADS-B
*In* receivers typically include a consumer grade WAAS chipset to locate
the aircraft's own position on weather and traffic displays and to provide
location/navigation data for external PDA/PNA/tablet navigation software.

ADS-B Out in gliders and towplane provides little value over other options
that are actually available, installable and well understood today. If you
want glider-glider and glider-towplane collision avoidance technology
install a PowerFLARM. If you are concerned about other traffic, PowerFLARM
PCAS and ADS-B 1090ES In can help, as can installing a transponder...
especially if the concern is fast jets and airliners.

If you operate under a Class B shelf your towplane will already have a
transponder, and unfortunately will also be required to equip with ADS-B
Out by January 2020. If not already equipped with one you should look at a
Mode-S 1090ES Out compatible transponder like a Trig TT-22. UAT Out devices
would be a very bad idea in a towplane as they won't be seen on a
PowerFLARM.

PowerFLARM would be a great solution if it supported TIS-B and was
coupled with an ADS-B OUT solution. Without TIS-B support, I'm totally uninterested.

Oh jeez what a surprise?

Where exactly is this mythical place you fly? What gliders do you fly today
and with what collision avoidance technology? What glider do you own?
Presumably if it is GA or other non-glider traffic that is your concern
that you have been posting for years on r.a.s. about you have been
operating transponders in your glider(s) for all that time right? If you
fly out of a club and have all these concerns about GS and other traffic
where you fly then presumably you have worked to have all their gliders
transponder equipped years ago, if not why not?

On Thursday, February 12, 2015 at 12:27:05 PM UTC-6, Darryl Ramm wrote:
Mike Schumann wrote:
On Wednesday, February 11, 2015 at 4:27:24 PM UTC-5, Darryl Ramm wrote:
Bill T wrote:
I believe that the GPS reciever still needs to be WAAS compliant to
provide ADSB out data. The key would be to approve portable ADSB out
devices, currently available for about $1500 with WAAS GPS built in, for
use in glider tow and gliders. It sure would save out club a heap of $$$
for the tow plane, we are under the class b shelf.

BillT

I am not aware of any ADS-B *Out* product priced at about $1,500 with or
without being portable or with or without a built-in "WAAS GPS".

I suspect you are confusing this ADS-B Out and ADS-B In. Portable ADS-B
*In* receivers typically include a consumer grade WAAS chipset to locate
the aircraft's own position on weather and traffic displays and to provide
location/navigation data for external PDA/PNA/tablet navigation software.

ADS-B Out in gliders and towplane provides little value over other options
that are actually available, installable and well understood today. If you
want glider-glider and glider-towplane collision avoidance technology
install a PowerFLARM. If you are concerned about other traffic, PowerFLARM
PCAS and ADS-B 1090ES In can help, as can installing a transponder...
especially if the concern is fast jets and airliners.

If you operate under a Class B shelf your towplane will already have a
transponder, and unfortunately will also be required to equip with ADS-B
Out by January 2020. If not already equipped with one you should look at a
Mode-S 1090ES Out compatible transponder like a Trig TT-22. UAT Out devices
would be a very bad idea in a towplane as they won't be seen on a
PowerFLARM.

PowerFLARM would be a great solution if it supported TIS-B and was
coupled with an ADS-B OUT solution. Without TIS-B support, I'm totally uninterested.

Oh jeez what a surprise?

Where exactly is this mythical place you fly? What gliders do you fly today
and with what collision avoidance technology? What glider do you own?
Presumably if it is GA or other non-glider traffic that is your concern
that you have been posting for years on r.a.s. about you have been
operating transponders in your glider(s) for all that time right? If you
fly out of a club and have all these concerns about GS and other traffic
where you fly then presumably you have worked to have all their gliders
transponder equipped years ago, if not why not?

Darryl,
The industry is reacting fast to the clarifying information from the FAA:
http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/A...WT.mc_sect=tec
Here is your ADS-B OUT box for $699, including WAAS GPS engine. Only good for experimental and kit built LSAs but a good start.
I have a transponder and PFlarm in my 'experimental' glider but would this be an option for those in high-traffic areas who right now don't fly with a transponder? PFlarm shows ADS-B targets very precisely and obviously ATC would know where you are. What's your take on that, Darryl? Mike S, no need to chime in!
Herb

On Friday, February 13, 2015 at 1:43:37 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Thursday, February 12, 2015 at 12:27:05 PM UTC-6, Darryl Ramm wrote:
Mike Schumann wrote:
On Wednesday, February 11, 2015 at 4:27:24 PM UTC-5, Darryl Ramm wrote:
Bill T wrote:
I believe that the GPS reciever still needs to be WAAS compliant to
provide ADSB out data. The key would be to approve portable ADSB out
devices, currently available for about $1500 with WAAS GPS built in, for
use in glider tow and gliders. It sure would save out club a heap of $$$
for the tow plane, we are under the class b shelf.

BillT

I am not aware of any ADS-B *Out* product priced at about $1,500 with or
without being portable or with or without a built-in "WAAS GPS".

I suspect you are confusing this ADS-B Out and ADS-B In. Portable ADS-B
*In* receivers typically include a consumer grade WAAS chipset to locate
the aircraft's own position on weather and traffic displays and to provide
location/navigation data for external PDA/PNA/tablet navigation software.

ADS-B Out in gliders and towplane provides little value over other options
that are actually available, installable and well understood today. If you
want glider-glider and glider-towplane collision avoidance technology
install a PowerFLARM. If you are concerned about other traffic, PowerFLARM
PCAS and ADS-B 1090ES In can help, as can installing a transponder....
especially if the concern is fast jets and airliners.

If you operate under a Class B shelf your towplane will already have a
transponder, and unfortunately will also be required to equip with ADS-B
Out by January 2020. If not already equipped with one you should look at a
Mode-S 1090ES Out compatible transponder like a Trig TT-22. UAT Out devices
would be a very bad idea in a towplane as they won't be seen on a
PowerFLARM.

PowerFLARM would be a great solution if it supported TIS-B and was
coupled with an ADS-B OUT solution. Without TIS-B support, I'm totally uninterested.

Oh jeez what a surprise?

Where exactly is this mythical place you fly? What gliders do you fly today
and with what collision avoidance technology? What glider do you own?
Presumably if it is GA or other non-glider traffic that is your concern
that you have been posting for years on r.a.s. about you have been
operating transponders in your glider(s) for all that time right? If you
fly out of a club and have all these concerns about GS and other traffic
where you fly then presumably you have worked to have all their gliders
transponder equipped years ago, if not why not?

Darryl,
The industry is reacting fast to the clarifying information from the FAA:
http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/A...WT.mc_sect=tec
Here is your ADS-B OUT box for $699, including WAAS GPS engine. Only good for experimental and kit built LSAs but a good start.
I have a transponder and PFlarm in my 'experimental' glider but would this be an option for those in high-traffic areas who right now don't fly with a transponder? PFlarm shows ADS-B targets very precisely and obviously ATC would know where you are. What's your take on that, Darryl? Mike S, no need to chime in!
Herb

Herb, thanks for the link, I'll reply more including about that specific UAT transceiver when I have more time, but briefly.

This UAT transceiver would be a *very* bad option for gliders flying in high-traffic areas.

Unlike a transponder UAT Out does not interoperable with TCAS, certainly would never cause an RA to be issued. That big old jet airliner could fly right though you with no warning... its' simply just universally assumed that any aircraft getting near an airliner, fast-jet etc. at a minimum has a transponder (or a transponder and UAT Out, or a transponder with 1090ES Out, but *never* UAT Out only).

The dual-link insanity in the USA cases more problems than is worth. You can't just talk about ADS-B without needing to be clear about what link layer....

Be careful assuming PowerFLARM shows ADS-B traffic at all... It does shows 1090ES Out traffic very precisely, however it does not show UAT traffic *at all*. You would not see an aircraft equipped with this transceiver with a PowerFLARM.

As far as I know the PowerFLARM at least as it exists today (and I have no idea of future plans) does not support ADS-R (or TIS-B) and so cannot use the FAA's ground based infrastructure that can (if you are in range) translate between link layers, (and even if it did the receiving glider would also need ADS-B Out properly set up to advertise the aircraft is capable of receiving ADS-B on the right link layer.... so the ground infrastructure broadcasts traffic to it on the link-layer it can receive that on). Even if you had all this it would only work in areas at at altitudes where three is ADS-B ground station line of sight coverage. A painfully obvious issue there is that at many gliderports, small airports, large airports, etc.the traffic pattern and higher is all below this ADS-B ground infrastructure coverage. And a UAT Out equipped aircraft in that area just won't be seen by a 1090ES In equipped aircraft and visa-versa. The only solution there is for all aircraft to be equipped with receivers for both link layers (e.g. 1090ES In and UAT In). Many manufacturers are doing exactly that, and there is no way I'd put ADS-B In anything in a GA aircraft that was not dual-link receive.

For all these reasons it is important that anybody who really wants to equip a glider or towplane with ADS-B out does so with 1090ES Out systems. We should see prices on those 1090ES Out systems and GPS units continue to fall.. And the flip side of this is most glider or towplane pilots have no need to equip with ADS-B Out anything. PowerFLARM and/or Transponders provide a lot of value today without needing ADS-B Out.

On Friday, February 13, 2015 at 2:47:45 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:

Unlike a transponder UAT Out does not interoperable with TCAS, certainly would never cause an RA to be issued. That big old jet airliner could fly right though you with no warning... its' simply just universally assumed that any aircraft getting near an airliner, fast-jet etc. at a minimum has a transponder (or a transponder and UAT Out, or a transponder with 1090ES Out, but *never* UAT Out only).


This is a critical point.

Most of the traffic out there, if it is carrying any form of ADS-B Out at all, is likely carrying 1090ES Out today (it's the only variant used in Europe and the only variant aircraft flying in Class A in the US carry). The fact that you cannot substitute ADS-B Out carriage for transponder carriage under the regulations is precisely because ADS-B does not activate the RA collision avoidance in TCAS. Take that plus the antenna diversity requirements under the FARs and it seems likely that most aircraft owners in the US will find it easier to equip with a Mode S transponder plus ADS-B 1090 ES Out plus either 1090 ES In or dual-link ADS-B in (it's pretty cheap to provide 1090ES and UAT In "just in case" and to get weather data services - most OEMs are doing this and it would be nice if a future version of PowerFLARM did this too).

I find it difficult to understand why anyone would equip with the duplicate transmitter, antennas, and endure the maintenance, etc, to equip a transponder plus ADS-B UAT Out when the simple solution is to get a Mode S and (at some point) add a (less expensive every day) GPS source to upgrade the transponder to 1090ES Out. The number of scenarios where you are outside ATC SSR coverage but within line of sight to an ADS-R ground station to pick up whatever misguided souls decided to equip with UAT Out only (and not a transponder) are too remote to bother with, and certainly not worth giving up TCAS. Yes, you could always equip with EVERYTHING, but your aircraft will be a porcupine of antennas and it isn't at all clear that you gain very much.

For gliders the best migration path is pretty clear: if you fly mostly with other gliders, get a PowerFLARM, if you fly near a busy airport with a lot power traffic, get a Mode S transponder that can upgrade to 1090 ES Out as the OEMs figure out how to get cheaper GPS sources to market. If you are worried about both scenarios, get both bits of gear.

9B

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._in_flight.jpg

On 2/14/2015 8:06 AM, Andy Blackburn wrote:
On Friday, February 13, 2015 at 2:47:45 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
Unlike a transponder UAT Out does not interoperable with TCAS, certainly would never cause an RA to be issued. That big old jet airliner could fly right though you with no warning... its' simply just universally assumed that any aircraft getting near an airliner, fast-jet etc. at a minimum has a transponder (or a transponder and UAT Out, or a transponder with 1090ES Out, but *never* UAT Out only).

This is a critical point.

Most of the traffic out there, if it is carrying any form of ADS-B Out at all, is likely carrying 1090ES Out today (it's the only variant used in Europe and the only variant aircraft flying in Class A in the US carry). The fact that you cannot substitute ADS-B Out carriage for transponder carriage under the regulations is precisely because ADS-B does not activate the RA collision avoidance in TCAS. Take that plus the antenna diversity requirements under the FARs and it seems likely that most aircraft owners in the US will find it easier to equip with a Mode S transponder plus ADS-B 1090 ES Out plus either 1090 ES In or dual-link ADS-B in (it's pretty cheap to provide 1090ES and UAT In "just in case" and to get weather data services - most OEMs are doing this and it would be nice if a future version of PowerFLARM did this too).

I find it difficult to understand why anyone would equip with the duplicate transmitter, antennas, and endure the maintenance, etc, to equip a transponder plus ADS-B UAT Out when the simple solution is to get a Mode S and (at some point) add a (less expensive every day) GPS source to upgrade the transponder to 1090ES Out. The number of scenarios where you are outside ATC SSR coverage but within line of sight to an ADS-R ground station to pick up whatever misguided souls decided to equip with UAT Out only (and not a transponder) are too remote to bother with, and certainly not worth giving up TCAS. Yes, you could always equip with EVERYTHING, but your aircraft will be a porcupine of antennas and it isn't at all clear that you gain very much.

For gliders the best migration path is pretty clear: if you fly mostly with other gliders, get a PowerFLARM, if you fly near a busy airport with a lot power traffic, get a Mode S transponder that can upgrade to 1090 ES Out as the OEMs figure out how to get cheaper GPS sources to market. If you are worried about both scenarios, get both bits of gear.

9B


--
Dan Marotta

On Saturday, February 14, 2015 at 11:20:10 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._in_flight.jpg




On 2/14/2015 8:06 AM, Andy Blackburn
wrote:



On Friday, February 13, 2015 at 2:47:45 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:


Unlike a transponder UAT Out does not interoperable with TCAS, certainly would never cause an RA to be issued. That big old jet airliner could fly right though you with no warning... its' simply just universally assumed that any aircraft getting near an airliner, fast-jet etc. at a minimum has a transponder (or a transponder and UAT Out, or a transponder with 1090ES Out, but *never* UAT Out only).



This is a critical point.

Most of the traffic out there, if it is carrying any form of ADS-B Out at all, is likely carrying 1090ES Out today (it's the only variant used in Europe and the only variant aircraft flying in Class A in the US carry). The fact that you cannot substitute ADS-B Out carriage for transponder carriage under the regulations is precisely because ADS-B does not activate the RA collision avoidance in TCAS. Take that plus the antenna diversity requirements under the FARs and it seems likely that most aircraft owners in the US will find it easier to equip with a Mode S transponder plus ADS-B 1090 ES Out plus either 1090 ES In or dual-link ADS-B in (it's pretty cheap to provide 1090ES and UAT In "just in case" and to get weather data services - most OEMs are doing this and it would be nice if a future version of PowerFLARM did this too).

I find it difficult to understand why anyone would equip with the duplicate transmitter, antennas, and endure the maintenance, etc, to equip a transponder plus ADS-B UAT Out when the simple solution is to get a Mode S and (at some point) add a (less expensive every day) GPS source to upgrade the transponder to 1090ES Out. The number of scenarios where you are outside ATC SSR coverage but within line of sight to an ADS-R ground station to pick up whatever misguided souls decided to equip with UAT Out only (and not a transponder) are too remote to bother with, and certainly not worth giving up TCAS. Yes, you could always equip with EVERYTHING, but your aircraft will be a porcupine of antennas and it isn't at all clear that you gain very much.

For gliders the best migration path is pretty clear: if you fly mostly with other gliders, get a PowerFLARM, if you fly near a busy airport with a lot power traffic, get a Mode S transponder that can upgrade to 1090 ES Out as the OEMs figure out how to get cheaper GPS sources to market. If you are worried about both scenarios, get both bits of gear.

9B






--

Dan Marotta

ROTFLMAO.......