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The Apology



 
 
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  #141  
Old October 28th 20, 08:49 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Ron Gleason
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On Wednesday, 28 October 2020 13:32:08 UTC-6, wrote:
On Tuesday, October 27, 2020 at 10:25:21 PM UTC-4, wrote:
I have really enjoyed having you in the batters box. here it is after 10 on the East Coast, must go watch a bit of Fox News, fair and balanced and get ready to work in the mango grove in the morning. Hope you have a wonderful evening and stay safe. Bob

Bob, I'm really proud of you. That's two posts, no fascist or nazi undertones. This is what progress looks like.

Thanks for this. We'll get through it, brother. Together. I'll be here for you.

Thanks Hugh, I must say it was a hard days work today getting all my mango and avocado trees trimmed and fertilized but the results next summer will be rewarding. I know that this has been a delicate subject, those feminazi radicals turned the bowl upside down. I have appreciated everyone's opinions, even Chip who continued to get personal.
I was quiet surprised that there was no comment on the origin that I explained about the term Feminazi, all some could do is throw manure on the wall and hope some of it sticks. Andy was the only person whom posted that wanted to or was capable of engaging in constructive dialogue.
Now, I guess it is time to let the pony ride, I sure wish Lewis Grizzard was still with us , I bet he would be writing a book about this event, the title would probably be "Those Melons Sure Look Good."
Before I close the curtain let me say that it has certainly been a pleasure engaging in this topic . Not often do we engage in dialogue as constructive as this, even in spite of what K&M say. Loosen up, we all have bigger fish to fry. May your soaring be rewarding, your life be enjoyable and may soaring continue to advance and be enjoyable to all of us no matter what our perceptions are. Bob Youngblood, beautiful Vero Beach, Florida


Yes I believe it is time for

kumbaya, kumbaya

https://www.definitions.net/definition/kumbaya


...... was originally associated with human and spiritual unity, closeness and compassion, and it still is, but more recently it is also cited or alluded to in satirical or cynical ways which suggest false moralizing, hypocrisy, or naively optimistic views of the world and human nature.
  #142  
Old October 28th 20, 09:01 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Doug B[_2_]
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I just spent more than an hour reading through this thread and I just want to add a couple of observations.

I can understand why the ad was offensive to some women. It's really a no brainer if you put yourself in their shoes.

I can just as well understand why their complaints and the subsequent apology may be offensive to someone holding conservative views, who feels that the freedom of speech is under attack by the woke crowd of overly sensitive liberal snowflakes.

THe common thread here is that people become overly sensitive when they see that their concerns aren't being heard, understood and validated.

I wish that all of us could turn our sensitivities down a notch. It would help smooth things out in the SSA and beyond.

Doug
  #143  
Old October 28th 20, 10:09 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andy Blackburn[_3_]
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The statement referred to the ones who act like pigs by (among other things) referring to women who are employed as "childless corporate whores". It isn't a general statement about all men, it's conditional on piggish behavior - that's what the word "few" referred to. She even used it twice in case you missed it the first time.

I still think you guys have chosen to die on the wrong hill.

Andy

On Tuesday, October 27, 2020 at 7:08:28 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
Maybe you can also tell us about why it is disrespectful to call us males "pigs."

Tom

  #144  
Old October 28th 20, 11:36 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Chip Bearden[_2_]
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Hey, Bob, we actually agree on something! I did get personal. In my defense, it's pretty hard not to when the debate is over what someone says, does, and believes and not whether FLARM should be mandatory in contests or if remote thermal detection devices should be banned, or even who should be the next president of the United States.

I would have been OK debating whether some of the letters were a bit confrontational or counterproductive. There are ways to gently register a concern that help promote an open dialogue and a satisfactory compromise.

Quickly, however, the real debate became not whether the complaints and SSA's response were justified but whether your response (and others like it) was acceptable. You led off by alluding to an orchestrated attack on the SSA.. By the next day, you had graduated to referring to the women who had complained as Feminazis, among other things. Gregg raised the ante with "childless corporate whore", which seems destined to follow him forever given his unrepentant posture.

Maybe I'm "overly sensitive" but when I see someone referring to people I know using a form of the term Nazi, it's pretty inflammatory. Like you, however, I looked up the word. Wikipedia (flawed, but at least it collects multiple references) defines Feminazi as "a pejorative term for feminists which was popularized by politically conservative American radio talk show host Rush Limbaugh." The Oxford Dictionary of American Slang says "it refers (pejoratively) to "a committed feminist or a strong-willed woman".

On that basis, although juxtaposing "Nazi" and "feminist" is questionable to me, I wouldn't accuse you of wanting to cleanse the world of women by force to make room for a [short-lived and sexually frustrated] master race of Floridian men.

But there's the word "perjorative", which means "expressing contempt or disapproval". That's not calculated to lead to productive debate.

Further into the Wikipedia entry, there's discussion about Feminazi being used "to marginalize any feminist as a hardline, uncompromising manhater." That's a pretty disparaging depiction, especially combined with being viewed with contempt.

So, yeah, my disagreement with you (and some others) IS personal. As I said, we could debate whether some or all of the letters to the SSA were appropriate or even if SSA's response was reasonable. I think it was even though, in Doug's terms, I'm a generally conservative guy who DOES worry, a lot, that "the freedom of speech is under attack by the woke crowd of overly sensitive liberal snowflakes." I live in the never-never world of AOC and NYC Mayor Bill DeBlasio so I'm primed to push back at a lot of what I consider social justice overreaches.

But not this one, especially not once the Feminazi comments started. You weren't the only one, but this was your thread and you carried the torch.

I also disagree this was a constructive dialogue. I think it dragged all of us down and probably didn't change any minds.

But I have few regrets. I may have lost some friends but given what I read here in the past few days, if I have, then they're not the men I thought they were.

BTW, This discussion is poised to, in a few hours, move into 9th place on the list of Top Ten RAS Discussions in the past 12 months (and likely for 2020). That is a remarkably depressing fact and one I would never have thought possible.

Chip Bearden
JB


  #145  
Old October 28th 20, 11:59 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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On Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 6:36:42 PM UTC-4, Chip Bearden wrote:
Hey, Bob, we actually agree on something! I did get personal. In my defense, it's pretty hard not to when the debate is over what someone says, does, and believes and not whether FLARM should be mandatory in contests or if remote thermal detection devices should be banned, or even who should be the next president of the United States.

I would have been OK debating whether some of the letters were a bit confrontational or counterproductive. There are ways to gently register a concern that help promote an open dialogue and a satisfactory compromise.

Quickly, however, the real debate became not whether the complaints and SSA's response were justified but whether your response (and others like it) was acceptable. You led off by alluding to an orchestrated attack on the SSA. By the next day, you had graduated to referring to the women who had complained as Feminazis, among other things. Gregg raised the ante with "childless corporate whore", which seems destined to follow him forever given his unrepentant posture.

Maybe I'm "overly sensitive" but when I see someone referring to people I know using a form of the term Nazi, it's pretty inflammatory. Like you, however, I looked up the word. Wikipedia (flawed, but at least it collects multiple references) defines Feminazi as "a pejorative term for feminists which was popularized by politically conservative American radio talk show host Rush Limbaugh." The Oxford Dictionary of American Slang says "it refers (pejoratively) to "a committed feminist or a strong-willed woman".

On that basis, although juxtaposing "Nazi" and "feminist" is questionable to me, I wouldn't accuse you of wanting to cleanse the world of women by force to make room for a [short-lived and sexually frustrated] master race of Floridian men.

But there's the word "perjorative", which means "expressing contempt or disapproval". That's not calculated to lead to productive debate.

Further into the Wikipedia entry, there's discussion about Feminazi being used "to marginalize any feminist as a hardline, uncompromising manhater." That's a pretty disparaging depiction, especially combined with being viewed with contempt.

So, yeah, my disagreement with you (and some others) IS personal. As I said, we could debate whether some or all of the letters to the SSA were appropriate or even if SSA's response was reasonable. I think it was even though, in Doug's terms, I'm a generally conservative guy who DOES worry, a lot, that "the freedom of speech is under attack by the woke crowd of overly sensitive liberal snowflakes." I live in the never-never world of AOC and NYC Mayor Bill DeBlasio so I'm primed to push back at a lot of what I consider social justice overreaches.

But not this one, especially not once the Feminazi comments started. You weren't the only one, but this was your thread and you carried the torch.

I also disagree this was a constructive dialogue. I think it dragged all of us down and probably didn't change any minds.

But I have few regrets. I may have lost some friends but given what I read here in the past few days, if I have, then they're not the men I thought they were.

BTW, This discussion is poised to, in a few hours, move into 9th place on the list of Top Ten RAS Discussions in the past 12 months (and likely for 2020). That is a remarkably depressing fact and one I would never have thought possible.

Chip Bearden
JB

Chip, I will not opine on the thread itself, I respect your opinion, I appreciate your perception and I am also thankful that you were the only one to further research the term. Just yesterday I concluded a lengthy legal ordeal that was cast upon me by what I would call the F word, not the 4 letter word but the 8 letter word that you did your research on, I commend you for looking into the origin and meaning. At the end of the day the largest donation ever was directed to the soaring club here in Vero. I cannot say much because of the confidentially agreement signed, I can say this, I gave it all to the club! Very few are aware of the event, I guess if you went as far to look up the F term you could find it.
I think that we agree to disagree, no disrespect intended. Your friend , Bob Youngblood
  #146  
Old October 29th 20, 01:25 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
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On Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 3:59:06 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 6:36:42 PM UTC-4, Chip Bearden wrote:
Hey, Bob, we actually agree on something! I did get personal. In my defense, it's pretty hard not to when the debate is over what someone says, does, and believes and not whether FLARM should be mandatory in contests or if remote thermal detection devices should be banned, or even who should be the next president of the United States.

I would have been OK debating whether some of the letters were a bit confrontational or counterproductive. There are ways to gently register a concern that help promote an open dialogue and a satisfactory compromise.

Quickly, however, the real debate became not whether the complaints and SSA's response were justified but whether your response (and others like it) was acceptable. You led off by alluding to an orchestrated attack on the SSA. By the next day, you had graduated to referring to the women who had complained as Feminazis, among other things. Gregg raised the ante with "childless corporate whore", which seems destined to follow him forever given his unrepentant posture.

Maybe I'm "overly sensitive" but when I see someone referring to people I know using a form of the term Nazi, it's pretty inflammatory. Like you, however, I looked up the word. Wikipedia (flawed, but at least it collects multiple references) defines Feminazi as "a pejorative term for feminists which was popularized by politically conservative American radio talk show host Rush Limbaugh." The Oxford Dictionary of American Slang says "it refers (pejoratively) to "a committed feminist or a strong-willed woman".

On that basis, although juxtaposing "Nazi" and "feminist" is questionable to me, I wouldn't accuse you of wanting to cleanse the world of women by force to make room for a [short-lived and sexually frustrated] master race of Floridian men.

But there's the word "perjorative", which means "expressing contempt or disapproval". That's not calculated to lead to productive debate.

Further into the Wikipedia entry, there's discussion about Feminazi being used "to marginalize any feminist as a hardline, uncompromising manhater.." That's a pretty disparaging depiction, especially combined with being viewed with contempt.

So, yeah, my disagreement with you (and some others) IS personal. As I said, we could debate whether some or all of the letters to the SSA were appropriate or even if SSA's response was reasonable. I think it was even though, in Doug's terms, I'm a generally conservative guy who DOES worry, a lot, that "the freedom of speech is under attack by the woke crowd of overly sensitive liberal snowflakes." I live in the never-never world of AOC and NYC Mayor Bill DeBlasio so I'm primed to push back at a lot of what I consider social justice overreaches.

But not this one, especially not once the Feminazi comments started. You weren't the only one, but this was your thread and you carried the torch.

I also disagree this was a constructive dialogue. I think it dragged all of us down and probably didn't change any minds.

But I have few regrets. I may have lost some friends but given what I read here in the past few days, if I have, then they're not the men I thought they were.

BTW, This discussion is poised to, in a few hours, move into 9th place on the list of Top Ten RAS Discussions in the past 12 months (and likely for 2020). That is a remarkably depressing fact and one I would never have thought possible.

Chip Bearden
JB

Chip, I will not opine on the thread itself, I respect your opinion, I appreciate your perception and I am also thankful that you were the only one to further research the term. Just yesterday I concluded a lengthy legal ordeal that was cast upon me by what I would call the F word, not the 4 letter word but the 8 letter word that you did your research on, I commend you for looking into the origin and meaning. At the end of the day the largest donation ever was directed to the soaring club here in Vero. I cannot say much because of the confidentially agreement signed, I can say this, I gave it all to the club! Very few are aware of the event, I guess if you went as far to look up the F term you could find it.
I think that we agree to disagree, no disrespect intended. Your friend , Bob Youngblood


That this ad was objectionable to all women is, simply, not true. I showed it to my wife and she thought it was cute, and others here have noted a similar reaction. A few, or one, women should not be allowed to speak for ALL women. A quarter-page ad was addressed with a FULL PAGE apology, totally out of proportion with the "crime." I, for one, object to being called a "pig," but am not expecting an apology.

Tom
  #147  
Old October 29th 20, 05:10 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Gregg Ballou[_2_]
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If you read my post I never called any specific person or female pilots 'childless corporate whores' I defined a group of women that way just as I defined another group of women as 'mothers.' I wonder if using '...employees' instead of '...whores' would have been less offensive, I doubt it. The comparison between mothers and childless corporate handmaidens is telling If you look at decades of research you will find that women's happiness levels have never been lower, women are losing badly(by happiness standards) in modern times. With the exception of about three glider pilots in the entire world, men are no longer sexist. And no I don't believe women are more free now, as I've pointed out several times women have been flying since the beginning of flying, so what have they gained? The ability to start internet virtue signaling outrage spirals among men. That isn't making women happier. What is the difference between the apology illustration and a current year picture of a male pilot answering a soaring related question from a female? The woman in the apology illustration could have learned to fly, same as a woman that walks onto a gliderport tomorrow. The women that complained were wrong and the Soaring magazine apology was wrong. And everyone here defending those actions are not trying to convince me that the complaint and apology were acceptable they are trying to convince themselves.
  #148  
Old October 29th 20, 05:22 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Chip Bearden[_2_]
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On Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 8:26:00 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
2G wrote:

That this ad was objectionable to all women is, simply, not true.


I was just saying how Bob and I finally agreed on something. And now I agree with you, too. I mean, is that crazy or not? You're right. The ad wasn't objectionable to every woman. Just like what you said wasn't offensive to every man.


I showed it to my wife and she thought it was cute, and others here have noted a similar reaction.


Tell the truth, Tom. What's your answer to "honey, does this dress make my butt look big?" Yeah, I thought so. This is what focus groups are for.


A quarter-page ad was addressed with a FULL PAGE apology, totally out of proportion with the "crime."


I dunno, Tom. From my time on the SSA Board, I recall that the magazine and Web site are always actively looking for content. That ad/apology got more readers and comments than almost anything else published in print or online this year. You guys have any other ideas?


I, for one, object to being called a "pig," but am not expecting an apology.


Yeah, that's probably not gonna happen. But don't worry. The actual quote was "few men are pigs". She might have had someone else in mind. I mean, it's possible.


This is fun, Tom! Keep those jokes coming. By midnight Pacific Time, this discussion should have reached 8th on the 2020 Most-Viewed-RAS-Discussions hit parade. Top-Five status is probably out of reach but if you troll this a little more, we have a shot at 7th, which would knock out "Paraglider pilot missing in eastern Nevada" by...2G.

Oops.

Chip Bearden
JB
  #149  
Old October 29th 20, 05:31 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
biff the dotard
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I have really enjoyed having you in the batters box. here it is after 10 on the East Coast, must go watch a bit of Fox News, fair and balanced and get ready to work in the mango grove in the morning. Hope you have a wonderful evening and stay safe. Bob

It's so good that Old Blood clarified that he's off to watch Fox News, in case anyone thought he would be tuning into Rachel Maddow. "Fair and balanced," he cracks. Being wrong, clueless, and sardonically proud of it all - the hat trick of being a Faux News viewer. So when he took time off from his very busy mango/avocado farmin' and soaring contributin' day to opine on the SSA/SSF mea culpa, and then the usual supporting cast of dinosaurs chimed in, a stink practically wafted out from my screen. We've seen it befo the insensitivity and intolerance toward the "Other". Sexism is just one facet. They just can't understand why anyone would object to the "Make Sexism in Aviation Great Again" SSF ad.

Then an unexpected thing happened. Out of a turd sprouted a beautiful and vibrant flower of moral enlightenment. I'm surprised and encouraged by the massing of intelligent, articulate, and sustained opposition to the chauvinistic sentiments that initially propelled this thread. Yes - call a spade a spade. Hold bigots accountable for their bigotry and don't let them gaslight reality when they get pushback. If this could happen more consistently on RAS, it would be a better place to visit, and the dinosaurs will eventually go extinct.

I should apologize to the real dinosaurs, whose extinction was not their fault. Scientific evidence suggests their extinction 66 million years ago had nothing to do with the terminal ignorance and hubris that afflict their modern-day relatives.
  #150  
Old October 29th 20, 06:04 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Hugh Grandstaff[_3_]
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If you read my post I never called any specific person or female pilots 'childless corporate whores' I defined a group of women that way just as I defined another group of women as 'mothers.' I wonder if using '...employees' instead of '...whores' would have been less offensive, I doubt it. The comparison between mothers and childless corporate handmaidens is telling If you look at decades of research you will find that women's happiness levels have never been lower, women are losing badly(by happiness standards) in modern times. With the exception of about three glider pilots in the entire world, men are no longer sexist. And no I don't believe women are more free now, as I've pointed out several times women have been flying since the beginning of flying, so what have they gained? The ability to start internet virtue signaling outrage spirals among men. That isn't making women happier.. What is the difference between the apology illustration and a current year picture of a male pilot answering a soaring related question from a female? The woman in the apology illustration could have learned to fly, same as a woman that walks onto a gliderport tomorrow. The women that complained were wrong and the Soaring magazine apology was wrong. And everyone here defending those actions are not trying to convince me that the complaint and apology were acceptable they are trying to convince themselves.


You also said "And the woman in the ad would be more attractive if she had kept her mouth shut. "

Oh, and Gregg?

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