A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Soaring
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Contest Wait list



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old November 28th 18, 07:23 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Ron Gleason
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 483
Default Contest Wait list

On Wednesday, 21 November 2018 13:49:38 UTC-7, wrote:
As a fairly new contest pilot but one that enjoys the entire sport.

It is interesting to me that Nephi OLC/XC Camp set for next June has a wait list and the Sr's is already has 39 pilots registered - yet Mifflin and Elmira have less then 10 total.

I have looked at the pilot survey and have chatted allot abut Soaring and the focus. Since I have experience in the Olympic movement, saw how it evolved and have no current/future desire to see it move further - I think Soaring as a sport could be at a cross roads.

Do we (all Soaring) put our effort/strategy into producing a World Champion or do we increase our population hoping that increase in numbers produces a World Champion. (or does a WC even matter?)

Just a thought as I entered my next years contests

WH

ps - I do not believe great Soaring geography is the key - I am on my 4th Sr's - the Soaring is not spectacular like UT - so I rule out geography IMHO


Comparing apples and oranges when looking at signups. The Nephi OLC events are a first signup, first served event *so* early signup is required to reserve a slot. The other SSA sanctioned meets follow this rule, from the 2018 SSA rulebook,

5.3.3 The Preferential Entry Deadline is 60 days prior to the first scheduled competition day.

So there is no incentive to signup early. Makes it tougher for organizers when it comes to resource planning especially tow planes.

IMHO very few competition pilots in the US have their focus on qualifying for and participating in World CHampionships.
  #12  
Old November 28th 18, 08:00 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 155
Default Contest Wait list

On Wednesday, November 28, 2018 at 1:23:40 PM UTC-5, Ron Gleason wrote:
On Wednesday, 21 November 2018 13:49:38 UTC-7, wrote:
As a fairly new contest pilot but one that enjoys the entire sport.

It is interesting to me that Nephi OLC/XC Camp set for next June has a wait list and the Sr's is already has 39 pilots registered - yet Mifflin and Elmira have less then 10 total.

I have looked at the pilot survey and have chatted allot abut Soaring and the focus. Since I have experience in the Olympic movement, saw how it evolved and have no current/future desire to see it move further - I think Soaring as a sport could be at a cross roads.

Do we (all Soaring) put our effort/strategy into producing a World Champion or do we increase our population hoping that increase in numbers produces a World Champion. (or does a WC even matter?)

Just a thought as I entered my next years contests

WH

ps - I do not believe great Soaring geography is the key - I am on my 4th Sr's - the Soaring is not spectacular like UT - so I rule out geography IMHO


Comparing apples and oranges when looking at signups. The Nephi OLC events are a first signup, first served event *so* early signup is required to reserve a slot. The other SSA sanctioned meets follow this rule, from the 2018 SSA rulebook,

5.3.3 The Preferential Entry Deadline is 60 days prior to the first scheduled competition day.

So there is no incentive to signup early. Makes it tougher for organizers when it comes to resource planning especially tow planes.

IMHO very few competition pilots in the US have their focus on qualifying for and participating in World Championships.


My take away is different - UT is 8 months away - I think they sell out because it is a great place at the right time with a popular format, run well and Bruno does a fantastic job promoting it -

Seminole FL - is 5 months away - will be sold out by Christmas - also well organized, warm and promoted well for years. Right time / right audience.

In my opinion most working people will have their vacations pretty firm by Jan 1

So how do we get them to commit - so organizers can be successful

How do we get new XC ideas so people get more propensities to join the bigger Soaring community while they are employed or have non Soaring families.

WH
  #13  
Old November 28th 18, 08:19 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,601
Default Contest Wait list

A soaring safari would be a great format.Â* I did it a three times back
in the 90s but lately it's impossible to get anyone to commit to a week
of pure fun, landing at a different airport each day.Â* I got the
inspiration from reading about border to border flights in Soaring
Magazine a long time ago.Â* Next year's Stemme gathering will possibly be
of the format and I'll be among the first to sign up. It's a hell of a ride!

On 11/28/2018 12:00 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, November 28, 2018 at 1:23:40 PM UTC-5, Ron Gleason wrote:
On Wednesday, 21 November 2018 13:49:38 UTC-7, wrote:
As a fairly new contest pilot but one that enjoys the entire sport.

It is interesting to me that Nephi OLC/XC Camp set for next June has a wait list and the Sr's is already has 39 pilots registered - yet Mifflin and Elmira have less then 10 total.

I have looked at the pilot survey and have chatted allot abut Soaring and the focus. Since I have experience in the Olympic movement, saw how it evolved and have no current/future desire to see it move further - I think Soaring as a sport could be at a cross roads.

Do we (all Soaring) put our effort/strategy into producing a World Champion or do we increase our population hoping that increase in numbers produces a World Champion. (or does a WC even matter?)

Just a thought as I entered my next years contests

WH

ps - I do not believe great Soaring geography is the key - I am on my 4th Sr's - the Soaring is not spectacular like UT - so I rule out geography IMHO

Comparing apples and oranges when looking at signups. The Nephi OLC events are a first signup, first served event *so* early signup is required to reserve a slot. The other SSA sanctioned meets follow this rule, from the 2018 SSA rulebook,

5.3.3 The Preferential Entry Deadline is 60 days prior to the first scheduled competition day.

So there is no incentive to signup early. Makes it tougher for organizers when it comes to resource planning especially tow planes.

IMHO very few competition pilots in the US have their focus on qualifying for and participating in World Championships.

My take away is different - UT is 8 months away - I think they sell out because it is a great place at the right time with a popular format, run well and Bruno does a fantastic job promoting it -

Seminole FL - is 5 months away - will be sold out by Christmas - also well organized, warm and promoted well for years. Right time / right audience.

In my opinion most working people will have their vacations pretty firm by Jan 1

So how do we get them to commit - so organizers can be successful

How do we get new XC ideas so people get more propensities to join the bigger Soaring community while they are employed or have non Soaring families.

WH


--
Dan, 5J
  #14  
Old November 28th 18, 09:13 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 155
Default Contest Wait list

On Wednesday, November 28, 2018 at 2:19:14 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
A soaring safari would be a great format.Â* I did it a three times back
in the 90s but lately it's impossible to get anyone to commit to a week
of pure fun, landing at a different airport each day.Â* I got the
inspiration from reading about border to border flights in Soaring
Magazine a long time ago.Â* Next year's Stemme gathering will possibly be
of the format and I'll be among the first to sign up. It's a hell of a ride!

On 11/28/2018 12:00 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, November 28, 2018 at 1:23:40 PM UTC-5, Ron Gleason wrote:
On Wednesday, 21 November 2018 13:49:38 UTC-7, wrote:
As a fairly new contest pilot but one that enjoys the entire sport.

It is interesting to me that Nephi OLC/XC Camp set for next June has a wait list and the Sr's is already has 39 pilots registered - yet Mifflin and Elmira have less then 10 total.

I have looked at the pilot survey and have chatted allot abut Soaring and the focus. Since I have experience in the Olympic movement, saw how it evolved and have no current/future desire to see it move further - I think Soaring as a sport could be at a cross roads.

Do we (all Soaring) put our effort/strategy into producing a World Champion or do we increase our population hoping that increase in numbers produces a World Champion. (or does a WC even matter?)

Just a thought as I entered my next years contests

WH

ps - I do not believe great Soaring geography is the key - I am on my 4th Sr's - the Soaring is not spectacular like UT - so I rule out geography IMHO
Comparing apples and oranges when looking at signups. The Nephi OLC events are a first signup, first served event *so* early signup is required to reserve a slot. The other SSA sanctioned meets follow this rule, from the 2018 SSA rulebook,

5.3.3 The Preferential Entry Deadline is 60 days prior to the first scheduled competition day.

So there is no incentive to signup early. Makes it tougher for organizers when it comes to resource planning especially tow planes.

IMHO very few competition pilots in the US have their focus on qualifying for and participating in World Championships.

My take away is different - UT is 8 months away - I think they sell out because it is a great place at the right time with a popular format, run well and Bruno does a fantastic job promoting it -

Seminole FL - is 5 months away - will be sold out by Christmas - also well organized, warm and promoted well for years. Right time / right audience.

In my opinion most working people will have their vacations pretty firm by Jan 1

So how do we get them to commit - so organizers can be successful

How do we get new XC ideas so people get more propensities to join the bigger Soaring community while they are employed or have non Soaring families.

WH


--
Dan, 5J


Wow that's interesting - can yo send me how that one was organized - to my email address.

I think we need to look at all the soaring groups and see how to best get them flying.

We do pretty well getting older retired guys to fly (I am close)
but what about:
High school kids
College kids
young workers with and without families
Adults with grown kids who maybe flew when they were younger (Me)
.....................

each has it's own dynamic to get them to fly - and a different dynamic to keep them flying.

Bottom line - we need more people flying - how do we get them to show up. I am pretty sure there is not one right answer - we need lots of answers and attempts.

WH


  #15  
Old November 28th 18, 11:11 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
BobW
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 504
Default Contest Wait list

On 11/28/2018 1:13 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, November 28, 2018 at 2:19:14 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
A soaring safari would be a great format.Â* I did it a three times back
in the 90s but lately it's impossible to get anyone to commit to a week
of pure fun, landing at a different airport each day.Â* I got the
inspiration from reading about border to border flights in Soaring
Magazine a long time ago.Â* Next year's Stemme gathering will possibly be
of the format and I'll be among the first to sign up. It's a hell of a ride!

On 11/28/2018 12:00 PM,
wrote:

Snip...

Wow that's interesting - can you send me how that one was organized - to my email address.

I think we need to look at all the soaring groups and see how to best get them flying.

We do pretty well getting older retired guys to fly (I am close)
but what about:
High school kids
College kids
young workers with and without families
Adults with grown kids who maybe flew when they were younger (Me)
....................

each has it's own dynamic to get them to fly - and a different dynamic to keep them flying.

Bottom line - we need more people flying - how do we get them to show up. I am pretty sure there is not one right answer - we need lots of answers and attempts.

WH


Just finished several hours of hanging outdoor Christmas ornaments (Ah,
retirement!), winter's approaching, and for some reason my philosophical gene
feels the need...

"Right you are!" regarding no single "correct answer," and needing "lotsa
answers/attempts."

Based on a sample of one (i.e. me) over 40+ years, in pilot-participation
terms SSA-sanctioned contests never were a personal draw. And not until ~2013
did I even attend one (as Joe Crew). Nonetheless, along the years I eagerly
looked forward to, and avidly read, "Soaring" mag's, major contest
writeups...and - especially earlier in my burgeoning XC "career" - actively
strove to "be as good as those contest guys," as measured by my assessment of
growing personal XC skills. Almost from before obtaining my gruberment-issued
PP(G) ticket, I was mentally hooked on XC. By the time several summers'-worth
of experience were beneath my belt, "camps" had thoroughly sucked me in.
(Different places! Nothing to do but go soaring! Woo hoo!!!)

Eventually, I learned something about my soaring self that had zero/zip/nada
to do with soaring, namely, I liked to soar one heckuva lot more than I did
driving to *where* to soar. To be clear, I *love* Road Trips, but I do NOT
love glider-towing-road-trips *when* the primary reason is for me to go
soaring. My "druther limit" pretty much became about one comfortable day's
worth of driving...say 8 hours or so.

I also eventually concluded I loved challenging myself against a day's weather
*much* more than I did the thought of letting someone else pick my course and
- by arguable extension - my time aloft. "Different strokes for different
folks," definitely applied to my way of thinking. And for two decades, each
year's Major Vacation was a week-long soaring camp; some years I was lucky
enough to enjoy multiple weeks'-worth of soaring camps.

My "primary camp" ran from ~1984-2009 (at Dalhart, TX). It began when a small
group of Dalhartians thought to put on a camp they hoped more experienced
pilots than them would attend, so they could suck out their XC knowledge
through straws stuck in their ears; the Dalhartians wanted to learn how to
actually do O&R's in their 2-33 and 1-26s, as distinct from vulgar downwind
dashes. They succeeded beyond - so I imagine - their wildest hopes, even
though they also burned themselves out in the organizational sense within 4
years. By that time a sparkplug person in "my home club" decided to make the
next year's camp a Soaring Society of Boulder-sponsored camp, camps being
things long enshrined in SSB's Bylaws. And so it remained for ~2 decades,
though with differing (and sometimes circularly-repeating) sparkplugs,
sometimes with two tugs, more commonly with one, glider participation numbers
ranging from 17 to 6, pilot skill levels from tyro to
World-Championship-participating. Many an SSB pilot made their initial
off-field landing at the camp (sometimes in 2-seaters!), most of whom haven't
yet aged out continuing to fly XC.

That particular camp eventually lapsed due to (IMO) changing demographics in
conjunction with human nature, human nature being the more powerful
contributor, IMO. In SSB's part of the world, "the mountains" exert a powerful
draw upon Joe Average Glider Pilot XC Wannabe's imagination and personal
dreams. I was no different in the immediate time-shadow of my licensing. Yet
despite having (successfully...as in never having landed out in the mountains
at anything other than an airport) learned mountain-flying XC "self-taught" -
and had a Great Time so doing! - it quite quickly became clear to me that
safely learning XC above more benign OFL territory was likely quicker, and
less mentally stressful, than doing so in the Rocky Mountains. And yet...

....over the years, the Most Difficult hurdle to reconvening the Dalhart Camp
every summer as a Club event, wasn't recruiting a tuggy/tuggies, but was
annually convincing one or more Joe XC newbies to commit to the camp "for
their own XC-good/future-development." "Everyone" of that level "just
naturally wanted" to go fly a *mountain* camp, even though their XC skills
largely grew about as slowly there as a pinon pine (i.e. slowly), as to the
lombardy-poplar-like (i.e. rapid) growth Dalhart encouraged.

I suspect all the above, in conceptual terms, is already well known to most
XC-experienced soaring pilots, so why did I bother to go on at such length?
Simply because Entirely Independent of *where* any soaring event is held, are
some (perhaps less obvious to Joe XC newbie? Or even some of the sport's more
experienced XC types, whose "often congenital" independence might help obscure
the following verities) Absolutely Critical Realities:

In no particular order...
- nothing happens without a sparkplug (ideally, several);
- More (of any sort of XC-encouraging) activity/camps is better;
- choice is good;
- all XC is good - contests (formal/informal)/camps (of any sort)/seminars/etc.
- likely the largest single hurdle is Joe Wannnabe XC-Pilot's personal
commitment to "invest in him/herself," to "just do it," by which I mean
routinely biasing their personal daily-life decisions in favor of soaring
rather than "something else" whenever such ponderations come actively to mind.

If it ain't sufficiently personally rewarding, Joe Pilot ain't gonna do it. (Duh.)

YMMV,
Bob W.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

  #16  
Old November 29th 18, 12:04 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,601
Default Contest Wait list

PM sent.

On 11/28/2018 1:13 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, November 28, 2018 at 2:19:14 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
A soaring safari would be a great format.Â* I did it a three times back
in the 90s but lately it's impossible to get anyone to commit to a week
of pure fun, landing at a different airport each day.Â* I got the
inspiration from reading about border to border flights in Soaring
Magazine a long time ago.Â* Next year's Stemme gathering will possibly be
of the format and I'll be among the first to sign up. It's a hell of a ride!

On 11/28/2018 12:00 PM,
wrote:
On Wednesday, November 28, 2018 at 1:23:40 PM UTC-5, Ron Gleason wrote:
On Wednesday, 21 November 2018 13:49:38 UTC-7, wrote:
As a fairly new contest pilot but one that enjoys the entire sport.

It is interesting to me that Nephi OLC/XC Camp set for next June has a wait list and the Sr's is already has 39 pilots registered - yet Mifflin and Elmira have less then 10 total.

I have looked at the pilot survey and have chatted allot abut Soaring and the focus. Since I have experience in the Olympic movement, saw how it evolved and have no current/future desire to see it move further - I think Soaring as a sport could be at a cross roads.

Do we (all Soaring) put our effort/strategy into producing a World Champion or do we increase our population hoping that increase in numbers produces a World Champion. (or does a WC even matter?)

Just a thought as I entered my next years contests

WH

ps - I do not believe great Soaring geography is the key - I am on my 4th Sr's - the Soaring is not spectacular like UT - so I rule out geography IMHO
Comparing apples and oranges when looking at signups. The Nephi OLC events are a first signup, first served event *so* early signup is required to reserve a slot. The other SSA sanctioned meets follow this rule, from the 2018 SSA rulebook,

5.3.3 The Preferential Entry Deadline is 60 days prior to the first scheduled competition day.

So there is no incentive to signup early. Makes it tougher for organizers when it comes to resource planning especially tow planes.

IMHO very few competition pilots in the US have their focus on qualifying for and participating in World Championships.
My take away is different - UT is 8 months away - I think they sell out because it is a great place at the right time with a popular format, run well and Bruno does a fantastic job promoting it -

Seminole FL - is 5 months away - will be sold out by Christmas - also well organized, warm and promoted well for years. Right time / right audience.

In my opinion most working people will have their vacations pretty firm by Jan 1

So how do we get them to commit - so organizers can be successful

How do we get new XC ideas so people get more propensities to join the bigger Soaring community while they are employed or have non Soaring families.

WH

--
Dan, 5J

Wow that's interesting - can yo send me how that one was organized - to my email address.

I think we need to look at all the soaring groups and see how to best get them flying.

We do pretty well getting older retired guys to fly (I am close)
but what about:
High school kids
College kids
young workers with and without families
Adults with grown kids who maybe flew when they were younger (Me)
....................

each has it's own dynamic to get them to fly - and a different dynamic to keep them flying.

Bottom line - we need more people flying - how do we get them to show up. I am pretty sure there is not one right answer - we need lots of answers and attempts.

WH



--
Dan, 5J
  #17  
Old November 29th 18, 06:01 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Foster
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 354
Default Contest Wait list

Wow that's interesting - can yo send me how that one was organized - to my email address.

I think we need to look at all the soaring groups and see how to best get them flying.

We do pretty well getting older retired guys to fly (I am close)
but what about:
High school kids
College kids
young workers with and without families
Adults with grown kids who maybe flew when they were younger (Me)
....................

each has it's own dynamic to get them to fly - and a different dynamic to keep them flying.

Bottom line - we need more people flying - how do we get them to show up. I am pretty sure there is not one right answer - we need lots of answers and attempts.

WH


This is what I've been wrestling with. I'm a new glider pilot, living in an area where almost no-one flies gliders (one other guy about 12 miles away). I live in the middle of an Indian Reservation in MT, with two "major" cities (populations about 73,000 and 23,000) over an hour's drive away. The local area holds tremendous ridge soaring potential, I think. However, there is a lot of poverty around here, and sparse population. How does one get people involved locally?

Ideas I've tossed around, but haven't implemented yet, include advertising at the local FBOs (there are 3 airports within a 20 mile radius), advertising with flyers in the FBOs of the airports at the two "major" cities, contacting local news media to do a "local interest segment", working out some sort of partnership/arrangement with the local Boys & Girls club, which is pretty active, possibly getting some celebrities who live locally to participate or get involved in some way or another.

My hope is that we can operate a club in a way that makes flying sailplanes "affordable" and doable for most people of moderate means. There is a stigma in the general population that flying is expensive. And for the most part, they are right. But I believe, that if it is done right, we could do something sustainable here locally, in a way that won't cost an arm and a leg. We need to get young people back into flying again, and it is my hope that flying gliders could be a way of doing this. We just have to get something "off the ground", in order to get some momentum. And that takes a bit of money.
  #18  
Old November 29th 18, 01:33 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Martin Gregorie[_6_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 699
Default Contest Wait list

On Wed, 28 Nov 2018 21:01:51 -0800, John Foster wrote:

My hope is that we can operate a club in a way that makes flying
sailplanes "affordable" and doable for most people of moderate means.

Is there anywhere you could operate a winch? IME, which may be different
from yours since I fly with a UK club with its own airfield, a winch
launch costs around a third of an aero tow. The club owns both winches
and Robin GR300 tugs and thats the price differential between a winch
launch and a 2000 ft aero tow - and the winching operation usually
subsidises aero towing. On our winch 1200-1400 ft is the norm, but with
stronger wind and a decent velocity gradient I've hit 2700ft.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org
  #19  
Old November 29th 18, 02:58 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
AS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 653
Default Contest Wait list

Is there anywhere you could operate a winch? IME, which may be different
from yours since I fly with a UK club with its own airfield, a winch
launch costs around a third of an aero tow. The club owns both winches
and Robin GR300 tugs and thats the price differential between a winch
launch and a 2000 ft aero tow - and the winching operation usually
subsidises aero towing. On our winch 1200-1400 ft is the norm, but with
stronger wind and a decent velocity gradient I've hit 2700ft.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org



Thanks, Martin - you beat me to the clock with that reply!
IMHO, a winch and a winchable two-seat glider have been the catalyst for clubs around the world in the past. Much lower initial cost and much lower operating cost.
John F.: send me a PM and we can discuss how to pull off the winch part (pun intended!)
Uli
'AS'
  #20  
Old November 29th 18, 05:06 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Martin Gregorie[_6_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 699
Default Contest Wait list

On Thu, 29 Nov 2018 05:58:14 -0800, AS wrote:

IMHO, a winch and a winchable two-seat glider have been the catalyst for
clubs around the world in the past. Much lower initial cost and much
lower operating cost.

Speaking of which, when I was in Szentes (SE Hungary, 40km north of
Szeged, I found a very small glider club operating off a grass strip.
They had a single drum winch on the back of a truck chassis, which I
didn't get a close look at, a beat-up old car for cable retrieval, a
Rubik R-26 Gobe two-seat glider and a Scheibe SF-25 touring motor glider.

That Gobe is the first I've seen, though its in the Martin Simon's
"Sailplanes 1920-2000" set of three books. Its an all-metal shoulder wing
glider with fabric on the wings behind the main spar, fabric-covered
control surfaces and fuselage sides. It is similar in age and performance
to an SGS 2-33 though its ergonomics, especially for the instructor, look
better. The instructor sits between the slightly swept-forward wing
leading edges. He sits a lot higher than the student so he has a good
view of both the only control panel, down over the student's shoulders,
and straight out above the his head.

I was offered a flight but didn't get one because the weather wasn't
cooperating when I could have flown.

But, to avoid going entirely off thread, I imagine their operating costs
as a club would be minimal.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Wait until it's right-side up Byker Aviation Photos 0 May 16th 15 01:12 AM
Seminole Lake XC Camp - SOLD OUT - Now Forming a Wait List Scott Alexander[_2_] Soaring 0 January 13th 13 01:27 PM
2012 SSA Contest Pilot Ranking list? Mike[_37_] Soaring 10 January 16th 12 02:37 PM
I get to wait another week Jay Maynard Owning 5 May 28th 08 04:48 PM
fix up old Cessna 150 or wait for LSA? HelpBoy Aviation Marketplace 1 February 24th 08 06:41 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:09 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.