FAR 91.157 Operating in icing conditions

I KNOW this is a big can of worms, but I have a specific question
relating to sub-paragraphs b.1 and b.2 of this regulation regarinding
operating in icing conditions.

It says "...no pilot may fly--
(1) Under IFR into konwn or forecast moderate icing conditions; or
(2) Under VFR into known light or moderate icing conditions..."

This seems odd. Why do you suppose the standards are different for IFR
and VFR ("moderate" vs "light or moderate)? Icing affects a pilots
ability to control the aircraft, so I do not see how instrument training
allows one to venture into worse conditions.

So, if there is an airmet for "light icing", then it is legal for an IFR
pilot to enter the clouds (of course, on a valid IFR flight plan)?

What perectnage of the time, during winter, do icing forecasts get
issued whenever there are IFR conditions? In other words, in y'alls
experience, if you get 100 briefings during the winter time that include
IFR conditions, what perecntage of those will also have icing forecast.
My intuition says that it will be upwards of 90-100% (I am a
relatively new IFR pilot, so I do not have the experience base to
say...looking for other opinions here). If it is close to 100%, should
I just hang up my IFR certificate from Sept to May (I live in Wisconsin,
so we only have about 30 minutes of summer here per year ).

-Sami

The FAR reference is 91.527, not what's in the title.

Ooops, yes, thanks. -Sami

Greg Esres wrote:
The FAR reference is 91.527, not what's in the title.

I have to read the AIM again, but last year I thought it said that you were
not allowed to fly into known or forcasted icing in a plane not equipped for
icing.

As for percent of time, anytime you have visible moisture or are in the
clouds, and the outside temp is freezing. weather reports will give you the
freezing level.

The smart thing to do is to avoid icing like the plague. Its bad stuff and
can build up quick on your windscreen and wings.
Alot of people will tell you you can fly into it, and when you pick up ice
you can go up or down and get out of it. Read the NTSB reports this winter
see how many people bet their life on it and lost.

Last winter I took a flight into clouds, icing was forcasted at 10,000 ft,
we went up to 9000, broke out in between some layers, I was with my first
instrument instructor, he wanted to be in the clouds, so he asked control
for 11,000 so we would be in the clouds again, I told him icing was reported
at 10k, he said dont worry, we will be ok, we can always go up or down...I
told him ok, but if you kill me I will come back and haunt you forever. I
will tell you right now, its a big mistake to go into known or forcasted
icing. I wont do it again. I told him after we encountered some problems
that I was going back and called center. He was mad, but it didnt matter, I
fired his ass as soon as we were on the ground.

Jeff


"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote:

I KNOW this is a big can of worms, but I have a specific question
relating to sub-paragraphs b.1 and b.2 of this regulation regarinding
operating in icing conditions.

It says "...no pilot may fly--
(1) Under IFR into konwn or forecast moderate icing conditions; or
(2) Under VFR into known light or moderate icing conditions..."

This seems odd. Why do you suppose the standards are different for IFR
and VFR ("moderate" vs "light or moderate)? Icing affects a pilots
ability to control the aircraft, so I do not see how instrument training
allows one to venture into worse conditions.

So, if there is an airmet for "light icing", then it is legal for an IFR
pilot to enter the clouds (of course, on a valid IFR flight plan)?

What perectnage of the time, during winter, do icing forecasts get
issued whenever there are IFR conditions? In other words, in y'alls
experience, if you get 100 briefings during the winter time that include
IFR conditions, what perecntage of those will also have icing forecast.
My intuition says that it will be upwards of 90-100% (I am a
relatively new IFR pilot, so I do not have the experience base to
say...looking for other opinions here). If it is close to 100%, should
I just hang up my IFR certificate from Sept to May (I live in Wisconsin,
so we only have about 30 minutes of summer here per year ).

-Sami

91.527
I KNOW this is a big can of worms, but I have a specific question
relating to sub-paragraphs b.1 and b.2 of this regulation regarinding
operating in icing conditions.

It says "...no pilot may fly--
(1) Under IFR into konwn or forecast moderate icing conditions; or
(2) Under VFR into known light or moderate icing conditions..."


This applies to large and turbine powered aircraft.

For us little guys, ANY ICE AT ALL is forbidden. (unless the aircraft is
certified for known ice, which very few spam cans are). Ice is insidious, and
very dangerous. It creeps up on you a little at a time like quicksand, and if
you don't get out quickly, it can easily become too late.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

Jeff wrote:
: Last winter I took a flight into clouds, icing was forcasted at 10,000 ft,
: we went up to 9000, broke out in between some layers, I was with my first
: instrument instructor, he wanted to be in the clouds, so he asked control
: for 11,000 so we would be in the clouds again, I told him icing was reported
: at 10k, he said dont worry, we will be ok, we can always go up or down...I
: told him ok, but if you kill me I will come back and haunt you forever. I
: will tell you right now, its a big mistake to go into known or forcasted
: icing. I wont do it again. I told him after we encountered some problems
: that I was going back and called center. He was mad, but it didnt matter, I
: fired his ass as soon as we were on the ground.

I don't think that this was an unreasonable thing for an
instructor to do (assuming you weren't in Colorado at the time). If
you've got at least a few thousand feet between the freezing level and the
MEA, you've got an out. This is assuming light rime ice, of course. My
instructor put me in the clouds while working on the instrument time for
my *Private* license, and we picked up a bit of ice while there. At the
time it freaked me out, but in retrospect it was pretty safe (at least
3000' of clear, above-freezing air below), and made me realize how
dangerous ice could be.

What kills people is when they fly in it with either a disregard
for its danger, and/or without a safety out.

-Cory
--
************************************************** ***********************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
************************************************** ***********************

"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote in message ...

This seems odd. Why do you suppose the standards are different for IFR
and VFR ("moderate" vs "light or moderate)? Icing affects a pilots
ability to control the aircraft, so I do not see how instrument training
allows one to venture into worse conditions.

VFR pilots are less likely to fly (legally) in to precip or clouds. You got to
have mositure to form ice.

So, if there is an airmet for "light icing", then it is legal for an IFR
pilot to enter the clouds (of course, on a valid IFR flight plan)?

It's illegal for him to operate IFR period.

"Teacherjh" wrote in message
...

This applies to large and turbine powered aircraft.

For us little guys, ANY ICE AT ALL is forbidden. (unless the aircraft is
certified for known ice, which very few spam cans are).


Forbidden by what?

For us little guys, ANY ICE AT ALL is forbidden. (unless the aircraft is
certified for known ice, which very few spam cans are).


Forbidden by what?


The laws of physics, ultimately. The FARs before that (though I can't find a
specific rule, it would certainly be classified as "careless and reckless" if
it led to an incident - it might be in the certification rules for aircraft,
same as aerobatic stuff and equipment required.) The FAA has made it clear
that unless the aircraft is certificated for known ice, you can't even legally
enter forecast ice.

Now, to open another can of worms, the FAA has produced an excellent video on
icing (which they show at various safety seminars) in which they take the
viewer through several flight scenarios. Well worth watching several times.

However, I take a bit of an issue with one thing - the "unprotected"
(non-de-iced) airplane pilot is flying in the clouds in non-icing conditions,
towards a front that contains ice (there is ice above). On takeoff the weather
briefing indicated that the front would not be an issue, but the weather moved
in faster. Temperatures go down, and he gets ice. Now what?

IN subsequent discussion, one possibility is to climb and get on top of the
overcast, and it would be reasonable if the destination were clear. (mabye
also in other situations). This would be legal (he's already in ice and trying
to get out). However, if he were not YET in ice, it would be illegal
(deliberately entering icing conditions). Seems to me that at that point,
(he's in non-icing conditions, non-icing is behind him, temps going down , his
destination ahead of him, and ice ahead of him) continuing would be illegal,
but the FAA guy didn't have the opinion that continuing would constitute
"deliberately entering ice..." and it's all a matter of bablance.

Well, yes but...

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

"Teacherjh" wrote in message
...

The laws of physics, ultimately. The FARs before that (though I can't
find a
specific rule, it would certainly be classified as "careless and reckless"
if
it led to an incident - it might be in the certification rules for
aircraft,
same as aerobatic stuff and equipment required.)


The FARs come before the laws of physics?



The FAA has made it clear
that unless the aircraft is certificated for known ice, you can't even
legally
enter forecast ice.


What law, other than a natural law, would such an action violate?