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FAA letter on flight into known icing



 
 
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  #51  
Old December 18th 03, 05:16 PM
Matthew S. Whiting
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Mike Rapoport wrote:
Ice is "known" to be present anytime there is visible moisture in the liquid
state and the temp is below freezing. There will ALWAYS be icing under
these conditions. Always, no exceptions.


Depends on how you interpret icing. I've flown for more than an hour
through ice crystals that were visible in the air, but which did not
accumulate on the airframe of my C-182. If I'm not accumulating ice on
the airframe, I don't consider it to be "icing conditions." Same as
flying through snow. I've flown through snow for literally hours and
never accumulated any on the airframe.


Matt

  #52  
Old December 18th 03, 05:40 PM
Bill Zaleski
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On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 08:00:45 -0800, "Tarver Engineering"
wrote:


"Bill Zaleski" wrote in message
.. .
Simply not true, John. A DAS must be tied to a repair station. There
are many STC holders that are not repair stations.


The Authority to self aprove parts is in CFR 14 Part 21, "DAS"; for an STC
the DAS owns.

They still can
produce approved parts without a PMA. The reference is FAR 21.435


Who aproved the parts, if there is no PMA, or TSOA?



The FAA does, under FAR 21.119 There are 11 ways to produce an
approved part. The PMA process is just one of them. You don't need
to hold a DAS to sell approved parts. You are clouding the issue.
Why can't you stick to one topic? You will gain a better
understanding by not confusing yourself.

  #53  
Old December 18th 03, 05:52 PM
Robert M. Gary
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I think post this is generally well understood. The question has
always been how to parse the phrase "Known icing conditions". Is it
"(Known icing) conditions" or "Known (icing conditions)". It makes a
huge difference whether its illegal to fly in any thing that is known
to maybe make ice (we understand very little about why ice forms) or
is it ok as long as you know the conditions aren't making ice (i.e.
PIREP).

BTW: Accoring to your FSDO, it is legal for a J-3 cub to fly in "Known
Icing Conditions" because no such limitation exists in its
certification.

-Robert, CFI
  #54  
Old December 18th 03, 06:19 PM
Tarver Engineering
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"Bill Zaleski" wrote in message

snip
The FAA does, under FAR 21.119 There are 11 ways to produce an
approved part. The PMA process is just one of them. You don't need
to hold a DAS to sell approved parts.


No, you need to have a DAS to self Approve parts.

You are clouding the issue.
Why can't you stick to one topic?


All of the thread drift is you, Mr. Zaleski. Once you were wrong about my
initial post to this thread, you have been franticly flailing about wanting
to be right about something.

You will gain a better
understanding by not confusing yourself.


I am in the Aproved parts business, you are the only one confused, Mr.
Zaleski.


  #55  
Old December 18th 03, 06:39 PM
Mike Rapoport
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Please reread the word "liquid".

Mike
MU-2


"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote in message
...
Mike Rapoport wrote:
Ice is "known" to be present anytime there is visible moisture in the

liquid
state and the temp is below freezing. There will ALWAYS be icing under
these conditions. Always, no exceptions.


Depends on how you interpret icing. I've flown for more than an hour
through ice crystals that were visible in the air, but which did not
accumulate on the airframe of my C-182. If I'm not accumulating ice on
the airframe, I don't consider it to be "icing conditions." Same as
flying through snow. I've flown through snow for literally hours and
never accumulated any on the airframe.


Matt



  #56  
Old December 18th 03, 06:48 PM
Tarver Engineering
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Posts: n/a
Default


"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
om...
I think post this is generally well understood. The question has
always been how to parse the phrase "Known icing conditions". Is it
"(Known icing) conditions" or "Known (icing conditions)". It makes a
huge difference whether its illegal to fly in any thing that is known
to maybe make ice (we understand very little about why ice forms) or
is it ok as long as you know the conditions aren't making ice (i.e.
PIREP).

BTW: Accoring to your FSDO, it is legal for a J-3 cub to fly in "Known
Icing Conditions" because no such limitation exists in its
certification.


And you used to be able to buy cigarretes without a warning label, it didn't
make smoking safe.


  #57  
Old December 18th 03, 08:02 PM
Matthew S. Whiting
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Mike Rapoport wrote:
Please reread the word "liquid".

Mike
MU-2


"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote in message
...

Mike Rapoport wrote:

Ice is "known" to be present anytime there is visible moisture in the


liquid

state and the temp is below freezing. There will ALWAYS be icing under
these conditions. Always, no exceptions.


Depends on how you interpret icing. I've flown for more than an hour
through ice crystals that were visible in the air, but which did not
accumulate on the airframe of my C-182. If I'm not accumulating ice on
the airframe, I don't consider it to be "icing conditions." Same as
flying through snow. I've flown through snow for literally hours and
never accumulated any on the airframe.


Matt


Gotcha, however, I don't think that is the criterion the NWS uses when
making forecasts of icing conditions. If it is, I'm impressed.
Certainly hasn't been my experience in the northeast during the winter
months.


Matt



  #58  
Old December 18th 03, 10:04 PM
Mike Rapoport
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The existance of moisture in the liquid state is, of course, the heart of
the problem. Since liquid water is unstable below 0C it will always be
somewhat hit and miss but my own experience is that if there is any lifting
activity then there will be ice in the (cumulus type) clouds. Also any
clouds with "hard" (as opposed to feathered) edges are full of ice.

Mike
MU-2

edges "Matthew S. Whiting" wrote in message
...
Mike Rapoport wrote:
Please reread the word "liquid".

Mike
MU-2


"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote in message
...

Mike Rapoport wrote:

Ice is "known" to be present anytime there is visible moisture in the

liquid

state and the temp is below freezing. There will ALWAYS be icing under
these conditions. Always, no exceptions.

Depends on how you interpret icing. I've flown for more than an hour
through ice crystals that were visible in the air, but which did not
accumulate on the airframe of my C-182. If I'm not accumulating ice on
the airframe, I don't consider it to be "icing conditions." Same as
flying through snow. I've flown through snow for literally hours and
never accumulated any on the airframe.


Matt


Gotcha, however, I don't think that is the criterion the NWS uses when
making forecasts of icing conditions. If it is, I'm impressed.
Certainly hasn't been my experience in the northeast during the winter
months.


Matt





  #59  
Old December 18th 03, 11:28 PM
Bill Zaleski
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Default

You can't spell approved, but you are in that business, eh? The
holder of an STC has the approval to produce and sell parts used in
that STC. He does not have to hold a DAS. The STC method of parts
production is a much less painful way vs. the PMA route, and is used
quite often to avoid having to comply with the added QC of the PMA
process. But of course you know that John, being in the "Aproved
parts business". I gave you the cite and you ignored it. You quote
things that are not supported by FAR's . Why don't you quit
generalizing and cite some accurate references that are on point?

Never mind, I have no more time to dwell on this. Have a nice day.


On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 09:19:34 -0800, "Tarver Engineering"
wrote:


"Bill Zaleski" wrote in message

snip
The FAA does, under FAR 21.119 There are 11 ways to produce an
approved part. The PMA process is just one of them. You don't need
to hold a DAS to sell approved parts.


No, you need to have a DAS to self Approve parts.

You are clouding the issue.
Why can't you stick to one topic?


All of the thread drift is you, Mr. Zaleski. Once you were wrong about my
initial post to this thread, you have been franticly flailing about wanting
to be right about something.

You will gain a better
understanding by not confusing yourself.


I am in the Aproved parts business, you are the only one confused, Mr.
Zaleski.


  #60  
Old December 19th 03, 12:04 AM
Tarver Engineering
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Bill Zaleski" wrote in message
news
snip
But of course you know that John, being in the "Aproved
parts business". I gave you the cite and you ignored it.


Dude, head somplace else to troll CFR 14.


 




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