FAA letter on flight into known icing

"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message link.net...
Ice is "known" to be present anytime there is visible moisture in the liquid
state and the temp is below freezing. There will ALWAYS be icing under
these conditions. Always, no exceptions.


I"m not sure at what point you consider clouds to be liquid versus gas
(vapor). I've often flown in the clouds at -5C without picking up any
ice. I've also flown in the same looking clouds and did pick up ice. I
still believe that there is a lot yet to learn about predicting ice.
It seems like you are many times more likely to pick up ice in
cumulous clouds than stratus (from practical experience). It also
seems like stratus usually only make ice near the top. Richard Collins
has often written on the continuing research the gov't is doing trying
to better predict when ice will occur.

-Robert

"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message link.net...
"David Megginson" wrote in message
. cable.rogers.com...
Mike Rapoport wrote:

There is no doubt that forecast icing is known icing to the FAA and the
NTSB. This has been beat to death many times here and in every aviation
publication.

The problem is (as always) the edge cases:

1. If icing is forecast at 15,000 ft, is flight at 3,000 ft considered a
flight into known icing? What about a flight at 14,000 ft?


Ice is forecast in clouds and precipitation from the freezing level to some
altitude. If you are below the freezing level then you are not in the area
forecast for iciing. This is not an "edge case", the icing is forecast only
at certain altitudes, the area outside of those altitudes has no forecast
for icing.

But often you can fly at that altitude in the clouds and get nothing.
The research contiues....

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
om...
"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
link.net...
"David Megginson" wrote in message
. cable.rogers.com...
Mike Rapoport wrote:

There is no doubt that forecast icing is known icing to the FAA and
the
NTSB. This has been beat to death many times here and in every
aviation
publication.

The problem is (as always) the edge cases:

1. If icing is forecast at 15,000 ft, is flight at 3,000 ft considered
a
flight into known icing? What about a flight at 14,000 ft?


Ice is forecast in clouds and precipitation from the freezing level to
some
altitude. If you are below the freezing level then you are not in the
area
forecast for iciing. This is not an "edge case", the icing is forecast
only
at certain altitudes, the area outside of those altitudes has no
forecast
for icing.

But often you can fly at that altitude in the clouds and get nothing.
The research contiues....

True. I was merely defining the area (horizontal and vertical) which was
considered to be known icing.

Mike
MU-2

C J Campbell wrote:
"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote in message
...
| C J Campbell wrote:
| "Matthew S. Whiting" wrote in message
| ...
|
| |
| | You might be legal, but you'd also be a test pilot. They might throw
| | the book at you for impersonating a test pilot ... unless, that is,
you
| | ARE a test pilot. :-)
| |
|
| What FAR spells out the requirements for certification of a test pilot?
|
|
|
| None that I'm aware of. Looks like you didn't catch the tongue-in-cheek
| nature of my comment either. I thought the smiley would give it away
| for sure. I guess some folks here are just too literal...
|

The response was in the same spirit as your post.



But you forgot the smiley! :-)

Matt

Robert M. Gary wrote:
"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message link.net...

Ice is "known" to be present anytime there is visible moisture in the liquid
state and the temp is below freezing. There will ALWAYS be icing under
these conditions. Always, no exceptions.



I"m not sure at what point you consider clouds to be liquid versus gas
(vapor). I've often flown in the clouds at -5C without picking up any
ice. I've also flown in the same looking clouds and did pick up ice. I
still believe that there is a lot yet to learn about predicting ice.
It seems like you are many times more likely to pick up ice in
cumulous clouds than stratus (from practical experience). It also
seems like stratus usually only make ice near the top. Richard Collins
has often written on the continuing research the gov't is doing trying
to better predict when ice will occur.

Yes, pretty hard to size water "droplets" when they are submillimeter to
micron sizes. That's why I advocate allowing the pilot the latitude to
take a look and make the call in real-time. Same as judging visibility
on an ILS. It is what it is when you are there, not what someone on the
ground things it is.


Matt

"Robert Moore" wrote in message
. 6...
"Tarver Engineering" wrote
The only thing Part 23 is about is STCs.
In fact, that is the title of Part 23.


Title 14--Aeronautics and Space
CHAPTER I--FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION, DEPARTMENT OF
TRANSPORTATION
Part 23: Airworthiness standards: Normal, utility, acrobatic, and
commuter category airplanes

Yes, Bob, soon Part 21 will be re-written. Perhaps it will not be the same
as when Part 145 can of worms was opened up and all the worms had babies.

"Tom Fleischman" wrote in message
rthlink.net...
In article , Tarver Engineering
wrote:

"Bill Zaleski" wrote in message
...
I just, within the hour, was introduced to the "Tarver cronicles".

That is an extensive archive troll and you should find it to be
identical to
your own cluelessness, Bill.

Why don't you two go get a room and be done with it.

What do you think, Bill, do you want to suck my dick?

"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote in message ...
Robert M. Gary wrote:
"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message link.net...
Yes, pretty hard to size water "droplets" when they are submillimeter to
micron sizes. That's why I advocate allowing the pilot the latitude to
take a look and make the call in real-time. Same as judging visibility
on an ILS. It is what it is when you are there, not what someone on the
ground things it is.

I 100% agree with you. This modern FAA attitude of "you will burst
into flames if a piece of ice gets on your plane" is probably not
helping anyone other than to keep IFR pilots on the ground on days
when ice can still be avoided. I'm not discounting the dangers of ice
and I would never just hang out in it but I agree that pilot's should
have more latitude.

-Robert

"Tarver Engineering" wrote in message ...
"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
om...

And you used to be able to buy cigarretes without a warning label, it didn't
make smoking safe.

I'm just waiting for the day when a new Chevy will have a placard
saying, "Warning, operation of this vehicle may cause death or bodily
injury".