Puchaz Spinning thread that might be of interest in light of the recent accident.

That full-blown glider pilots would question the need for spin training is
unbelievable.
But all the oppinions I read on this tread just shows how much ignorance
there is on the subject, it's really sad.

What nobody seems to realize is that the Puchacz is used more extensively in
these types of training than anything else.
Older gliders are simply not spun at the very low altitudes that they seem
to do it in the UK, which is why other models don't appear on any
statistics.

Spin training is an absolute MUST for any glider pilot. I've done it time
and again in Puchacz with many students, and none of my students share these
sad oppinions, none of them think of it as some obscure black magic,
life-threatening manouver.

But I've always done spin training at 3000ft, until the student realizes
what does it take to recover from the spin, and how the controls behave, and
therefore, how to realize you're about to spin in the low base-to-final.

Enough of this nonsense.


"Stewart Kissel" wrote in
message ...
OK JJ, I'll bite (sorta)-

With spin entry training being done so often in benign-handling
ships, what in fact are we teaching/learning?

'Pull back, Pull back, okay kick in full rudder'-and
the thinking might go-'Gee, how does anyone get into
a spin, this is way to much work'

How does this apply the first time someone gets in
a ship that may fall off on its own?



At 18:24 23 January 2004, Mark James Boyd wrote:
In article ,
JJ Sinclair wrote:
It's winter, I'm bored and I haven't started any good
controversies (this year)
so here goes:

In the early 50's the USAF had a policy to give jump
training to all aircrew
personnel. They soon learned that they were getting
twice the injuries in
training that they were experiencing in real bail-outs.
They decided to stop
the actual jump training and just give PLF and kit
deployment, etc training.

So, JJ asks, In light of recent events that show its
been reining Puchaz's, Do
we really want to teach full blown spins? Isn't spin
entry and immediate
recovery, all we should be doing?

JJ Sinclair

With three times as many fatalities in training than
flying (helicopters),
one wonders the wisdom of practicing hundreds of autorotations
during
helicopter training as well.

A year or two ago, there were people suggesting that low spins, say
below 1500 agl, were an important training exercise since they let the
student experience the shock of a canopy full of earth coming on
quickly. By having experienced this, the pilot would be able to react
more quickly to the accidental stall/spin in the pattern and thus
effect a faster, safer recovery.

Are you saying that you agree with this, that you practice it, and
that it has become common practice in the UK?

(You note that you start your training at 3000 agl, then imply that
once the student is acclimated, you bring the entry altitude down.)

Chris,

No, I don't think you have to spin below 1500agl, I don't agree with that
practice.

By "doing it time and again until the student realizes...." I just meant
practicing spins repeatedly during the training syllabus, not just once for
demonstration.



"Chris OCallaghan" wrote in message
om...
A year or two ago, there were people suggesting that low spins, say
below 1500 agl, were an important training exercise since they let the
student experience the shock of a canopy full of earth coming on
quickly. By having experienced this, the pilot would be able to react
more quickly to the accidental stall/spin in the pattern and thus
effect a faster, safer recovery.

Are you saying that you agree with this, that you practice it, and
that it has become common practice in the UK?

(You note that you start your training at 3000 agl, then imply that
once the student is acclimated, you bring the entry altitude down.)

Thanks Arnold, for the clarification.

Do you supplement your spin training with conditioning exercises to
reinforce the prompt movement forward of the stick at the first sign
of an iminent stall? Repeated spin entries could condition a student
to await the stall break, since we are intentionally trying to develop
a spin, recognize it, and recover. "Hold it back. Good. Feed in some
rudder to skid the turn. Good. Now try to pick up the dropping wing.
Good..." This could unintentionally program a student to await the
stall break rather than reacting instinctively to a prestall by
immediately lowering angle of attack.

Where do you put your spin training in the syllabus? And do you demand
stall onset recognition before and revisit after?

I agree that it is wise to expose a student to spins, to the point
where it is recognized and the student demonstrates appropriate
recovery, but I think it is more important to teach onset recognition
and recovery. I'm just trying to get a sense of where in the syllabus
instructors put this skill and why.

Thanks again,

Chris OC

If all you are planning to fly is well behaved and you are a cautious
pilot who never competes, or flies till fatigue set in that is fine.

Conversely a lot of the aircraft out there, and particularly the glass
single seaters will depart into a spin with little warning in the right
circumstances. Recovery attitude is often nearly vertical and the entry
violent. This is especially true of high performance single seaters with
high wingloadings. (lots of water in the wings)

We are also in part of the world that preaches spin identification and
avoidance. I fly a 33 year old glass plane (Standard Cirrus) that has
delightful handling and is relatively easy to fly, up to a point. Beyond
that point the alacrity with which she drops a wing prompted me to go
out and get some real spin training, so at least I have a chance. Maybe
I am just a mediocre pilot, but I am not sure I will not cross the line
some day. Even in a docile K13 the first couple were disorienting and I
recovered more because of the K13's behavior than correct procedure -
and I did this post solo.

Now I am a lot more relaxed in situations where it is possible I might
spin inadvertently like turbulent thermals.

Bruce

Arnold Pieper wrote:
That full-blown glider pilots would question the need for spin training is
unbelievable.
But all the oppinions I read on this tread just shows how much ignorance
there is on the subject, it's really sad.

What nobody seems to realize is that the Puchacz is used more extensively in
SNIP

Stewart Kissel wrote:

'Pull back, Pull back, okay kick in full rudder'-and
the thinking might go-'Gee, how does anyone get into
a spin, this is way to much work'

Yeah, this is pretty useless and I don't do that. Here's something I
posted about 3 years agog.

--------------------


I became a learn to spin convert after
unintentionally spinning on my very first flight in a single seat
glider. I was thermalling and (presumably) got too slow and
uncoordinated and, over she went. I'd had spin training and the recovery
was a no brainer.

I totally agree that teaching spins by pulling the nose up and then
stomping on the rudder is not particularly useful (fun though . I do
demonstrate this technique first so that the student feels what the spin
feels like. Then he won't be surprised and can pay more attention to
what I'm trying to teach.

After the "yank and stomp" spin, I explain that that isn't the spin that
will kill you. At altitude, I simulate a slow base to final spin,
gradually slowing the glider down, pretending that we're over shooting
the runway center line and then "helping" the turn along by adding
inside rudder. As I'm adding rudder, the glider enters the spin AND THE
NOSE WAS NEVER ABOVE THE HORIZON. After about 1/2 a rev, I'll mention
to the student that if this had happened at 400 feet, we'd be dead about
now. It's a real eye opener.



Tony V.

Why is it when there is a fatality we set off on a
chest beating exercise? The poor old Puchacz.

It is built to do a job, which it does excellently.
It can be used effectively to teach all aspects of
the glider pilots training syllabus without adding
weights, spin whiskers or other fancy gismos. It does
not have to be provoked into performing some of the
exercises, it does them as it should, correctly and
on command.

Yes it spins. It is designed to do that! OK it suffers
from some of its build quality.

It gives plenty of warning of the approaching stall,
it also gives plenty of warning that it is about to
spin. It can be flown very badly on or about the stall
and provided the pilot is aware of the circumstance
merely regaining flying speed generally solves the
problems.

Capable instructors can teach the whole range of stalling
and further stalling exercises. Unfortunately it allows
those not familiar with it into some dangerous areas

Like all gliders, instructors should be taught what
the glider is capable of, its qualities and how to
get the best out of the glider. I have been teaching
on Puchacz gliders for over 10 years and the more I
fly them the more I realise what a superb training
tool they are.

Other two seaters do some jobs better, but overall
the Puchacz is perhaps best all round training glider
in production today. It is a training tool and should
be used as such.

Having said that it is not a glider to get complacent
with. Like many gliders even those with alleged docile
characteristics if flown badly it will bite the unwary.


Dave

Some aircraft designs, given the wrong set of circumstances, can exhibit
unusual or divergent flight characteristics. They can enter a deep stall or
flat spin from which recovery is impossible or difficult. Not sure if the
Puchaz suffers from any of this, the accident numbers alone may make some
wonder. Being your basic coward, I wouldn't spin one without knowing for
sure what's going on . . . and I'll admit I don't.
--
bumper ZZ (reverse all after @)
"Dare to be different . . . circle in sink."


"Dave Martin" wrote in message
...
Why is it when there is a fatality we set off on a
chest beating exercise? The poor old Puchacz.

It is built to do a job, which it does excellently.
It can be used effectively to teach all aspects of
the glider pilots training syllabus without adding
weights, spin whiskers or other fancy gismos. It does
not have to be provoked into performing some of the
exercises, it does them as it should, correctly and
on command.

Yes it spins. It is designed to do that! OK it suffers
from some of its build quality.

It gives plenty of warning of the approaching stall,
it also gives plenty of warning that it is about to
spin. It can be flown very badly on or about the stall
and provided the pilot is aware of the circumstance
merely regaining flying speed generally solves the
problems.

Capable instructors can teach the whole range of stalling
and further stalling exercises. Unfortunately it allows
those not familiar with it into some dangerous areas

Like all gliders, instructors should be taught what
the glider is capable of, its qualities and how to
get the best out of the glider. I have been teaching
on Puchacz gliders for over 10 years and the more I
fly them the more I realise what a superb training
tool they are.

Other two seaters do some jobs better, but overall
the Puchacz is perhaps best all round training glider
in production today. It is a training tool and should
be used as such.

Having said that it is not a glider to get complacent
with. Like many gliders even those with alleged docile
characteristics if flown badly it will bite the unwary.


Dave

In article
,
"bumper" wrote:

Some aircraft designs, given the wrong set of circumstances, can exhibit
unusual or divergent flight characteristics. They can enter a deep stall or
flat spin from which recovery is impossible or difficult. Not sure if the
Puchaz suffers from any of this, the accident numbers alone may make some
wonder.

There have got to be more Blaniks around than Pooks, and they also spin
very enthusiastically and suddenly (but with the classic warnings) off a
botched turn. But I haven't noticed them featuring in the accident
statistics.

-- Bruce

Read the previous treads.

The Puchacz is used for low altitude spin training more than anything else
because it is that well trusted.

Being subject to that more than other/older designs, it is just more
exposed.
Where people don't spin gliders at low altitudes, the Puchacz has as clean
(or cleaner) a record as any other training glider.

If you don't know what's going on, check the www.ssa.org website, click on
Magazines, then on "Dick Johnson" and find his flight evaluation of the
Puchacz and the specific "spin characteristics evaluation" of the Puchacz,
in which Dick gives the Puchacz a clean bill of health.


"bumper" wrote in message
...
Some aircraft designs, given the wrong set of circumstances, can exhibit
unusual or divergent flight characteristics. They can enter a deep stall
or
flat spin from which recovery is impossible or difficult. Not sure if the
Puchaz suffers from any of this, the accident numbers alone may make some
wonder. Being your basic coward, I wouldn't spin one without knowing for
sure what's going on . . . and I'll admit I don't.
--
bumper ZZ (reverse all after @)
"Dare to be different . . . circle in sink."


"Dave Martin" wrote in message
...
Why is it when there is a fatality we set off on a
chest beating exercise? The poor old Puchacz.

It is built to do a job, which it does excellently.
It can be used effectively to teach all aspects of
the glider pilots training syllabus without adding
weights, spin whiskers or other fancy gismos. It does
not have to be provoked into performing some of the
exercises, it does them as it should, correctly and
on command.

Yes it spins. It is designed to do that! OK it suffers
from some of its build quality.

It gives plenty of warning of the approaching stall,
it also gives plenty of warning that it is about to
spin. It can be flown very badly on or about the stall
and provided the pilot is aware of the circumstance
merely regaining flying speed generally solves the
problems.

Capable instructors can teach the whole range of stalling
and further stalling exercises. Unfortunately it allows
those not familiar with it into some dangerous areas

Like all gliders, instructors should be taught what
the glider is capable of, its qualities and how to
get the best out of the glider. I have been teaching
on Puchacz gliders for over 10 years and the more I
fly them the more I realise what a superb training
tool they are.

Other two seaters do some jobs better, but overall
the Puchacz is perhaps best all round training glider
in production today. It is a training tool and should
be used as such.

Having said that it is not a glider to get complacent
with. Like many gliders even those with alleged docile
characteristics if flown badly it will bite the unwary.


Dave