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Wind/Solar Electrics ???



 
 
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  #1  
Old December 15th 05, 12:02 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning,sci.electronics.design
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Default Wind/Solar Electrics ???

After much thought and ponderance, I've come to the conclusion that to
electrify the hangar using Pacific Gas & Electricity (PG&E -- Pigs, Goats,
and Elephants) isn't clever. By the time you get them to hang a meter
($5k), trench from the power pole to the end of the row of hangars, conduit
romex to 35 hangars at a cost somewhere around $50k ($1500 per hangar), and
then pay the monthly electric bill, you could buy a hell of a wind/solar
system and perch it on the (flat) hangar roof.

Before I flail about gathering data, has anybody on these ngs actually
installed a design whereby a hefty solar panel charges a hefty battery to
run a hefty inverter? It doesn't have to be absolutely "clean" sinewave
power as all we are running are fluorescent shop lights (about 400 watts
worth), every now and again a small compressor, a small drill press, a small
grinder, but none of these last few at the same time.

My hit on it is that a 2 kW inverter would be more than enough to handle the
AC side of it, and a bank of 12 volt truck batteries would work for the DC
side of it, but there are the problems of parallelling large batteries, how
to combine the outputs of solar cells and wind generators, and a reasonable
source for all this stuff.

There are issues around protecting the solar cells from hail, which we do
get from time to time, battery acidic gases inside a hangar where a very
expensive lump of aluminum is sitting for months on end, sizing the solar
cell and wind generators, and other considerations along these lines.

Comments appreciated.


Jim


  #2  
Old December 15th 05, 12:09 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning,sci.electronics.design
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Default Wind/Solar Electrics ???

"Hefty" solar panels don't come for cheap.

Do you have regular enough winds to use for battery recharging?

On Wed, 14 Dec 2005 15:02:56 -0800, "RST Engineering"
wrote:

After much thought and ponderance, I've come to the conclusion that to
electrify the hangar using Pacific Gas & Electricity (PG&E -- Pigs, Goats,
and Elephants) isn't clever. By the time you get them to hang a meter
($5k), trench from the power pole to the end of the row of hangars, conduit
romex to 35 hangars at a cost somewhere around $50k ($1500 per hangar), and
then pay the monthly electric bill, you could buy a hell of a wind/solar
system and perch it on the (flat) hangar roof.

Before I flail about gathering data, has anybody on these ngs actually
installed a design whereby a hefty solar panel charges a hefty battery to
run a hefty inverter? It doesn't have to be absolutely "clean" sinewave
power as all we are running are fluorescent shop lights (about 400 watts
worth), every now and again a small compressor, a small drill press, a small
grinder, but none of these last few at the same time.

My hit on it is that a 2 kW inverter would be more than enough to handle the
AC side of it, and a bank of 12 volt truck batteries would work for the DC
side of it, but there are the problems of parallelling large batteries, how
to combine the outputs of solar cells and wind generators, and a reasonable
source for all this stuff.

There are issues around protecting the solar cells from hail, which we do
get from time to time, battery acidic gases inside a hangar where a very
expensive lump of aluminum is sitting for months on end, sizing the solar
cell and wind generators, and other considerations along these lines.

Comments appreciated.


Jim



...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
  #3  
Old December 15th 05, 12:10 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning,sci.electronics.design
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Default Wind/Solar Electrics ???


"RST Engineering" wrote in message
.. .
After much thought and ponderance, I've come to the conclusion that to
electrify the hangar using Pacific Gas & Electricity (PG&E -- Pigs, Goats,
and Elephants) isn't clever. By the time you get them to hang a meter
($5k), trench from the power pole to the end of the row of hangars,

conduit
romex to 35 hangars at a cost somewhere around $50k ($1500 per hangar),

and
then pay the monthly electric bill, you could buy a hell of a wind/solar
system and perch it on the (flat) hangar roof.

Before I flail about gathering data, has anybody on these ngs actually
installed a design whereby a hefty solar panel charges a hefty battery to
run a hefty inverter? It doesn't have to be absolutely "clean" sinewave
power as all we are running are fluorescent shop lights (about 400 watts
worth), every now and again a small compressor, a small drill press, a

small
grinder, but none of these last few at the same time.

My hit on it is that a 2 kW inverter would be more than enough to handle

the
AC side of it, and a bank of 12 volt truck batteries would work for the DC
side of it, but there are the problems of parallelling large batteries,

how
to combine the outputs of solar cells and wind generators, and a

reasonable
source for all this stuff.

There are issues around protecting the solar cells from hail, which we do
get from time to time, battery acidic gases inside a hangar where a very
expensive lump of aluminum is sitting for months on end, sizing the solar
cell and wind generators, and other considerations along these lines.

Comments appreciated.


Jim



Seems running a generator would be simpler and cheaper.


  #4  
Old December 15th 05, 12:32 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning,sci.electronics.design
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Posts: n/a
Default Wind/Solar Electrics ???


"Jim Thompson" wrote in
message ...



"Hefty" solar panels don't come for cheap.


That's true, but they are about half the price that they were about ten
years ago. That said, a small Honda generator when you really need a couple
of kW and a few watts of solar panel to keep the aircraft battery batting
and the keepalives on the radios keeping may be the hybrid way to go.


Do you have regular enough winds to use for battery recharging?


Well, we are at 3000' on the west slope of the Sierra on the top of a small
hill with nothing (literally) between us and Japan except for a wire fence,
and it's down {;-) We get some decent winds, but nothing you can count on.
Today, for example, the peak wind was somewhere around 7 knots and the
average somewhere around 3 or 4 knots. Then again, last week we had a
howler come through here at 40 knots and last for a day. Nothing
dependable.

Jim


  #5  
Old December 15th 05, 12:33 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning,sci.electronics.design
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Default Wind/Solar Electrics ???

With a small solar panel to keep the continuous load going, not a bad way to
go.

Jim

Seems running a generator would be simpler and cheaper.




  #6  
Old December 15th 05, 12:46 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning,sci.electronics.design
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Posts: n/a
Default Wind/Solar Electrics ???

RST Engineering wrote:

After much thought and ponderance, I've come to the conclusion that to
electrify the hangar using Pacific Gas & Electricity (PG&E -- Pigs, Goats,
and Elephants) isn't clever. By the time you get them to hang a meter
($5k), trench from the power pole to the end of the row of hangars, conduit
romex to 35 hangars at a cost somewhere around $50k ($1500 per hangar), and
then pay the monthly electric bill, you could buy a hell of a wind/solar
system and perch it on the (flat) hangar roof.

Before I flail about gathering data, has anybody on these ngs actually
installed a design whereby a hefty solar panel charges a hefty battery to
run a hefty inverter? It doesn't have to be absolutely "clean" sinewave
power as all we are running are fluorescent shop lights (about 400 watts
worth), every now and again a small compressor, a small drill press, a small
grinder, but none of these last few at the same time.

My hit on it is that a 2 kW inverter would be more than enough to handle the
AC side of it, and a bank of 12 volt truck batteries would work for the DC
side of it, but there are the problems of parallelling large batteries, how
to combine the outputs of solar cells and wind generators, and a reasonable
source for all this stuff.

There are issues around protecting the solar cells from hail, which we do
get from time to time, battery acidic gases inside a hangar where a very
expensive lump of aluminum is sitting for months on end, sizing the solar
cell and wind generators, and other considerations along these lines.

Comments appreciated.


I have no experience with solar so I can't comment. However, I'm
wondering if you have considered a small gas or diesel powered
generator? It would likely be cheaper initially and less maintance over
time, especially if you don't need the power all of the time.

Matt
  #7  
Old December 15th 05, 12:54 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning,sci.electronics.design
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Default Wind/Solar Electrics ???

I use Trojan T-105 6 volt batteries in my 5th wheel. They are far and
away better than any automotive or deep cycle 12 volt battery for even
several times the price. A friend not far from here has a solar setup
like you are contemplating at his hangar. I also have a solar panel on
my camper. Here's a couple of links to get you started. You don't have
to worry about hail, until it comes down the size of softballs they are
impervious to it. I don't know what problems you mean with paralleling
batteries but as long as all the batteries are the same they charge just
fine. Just make sure you have a charge controller. Mine is a 7 amp
because I only have a 75 watt panel. A few hundred watts and about six
6 volt batteries would take care of you.



http://www.trojan-battery.com/

http://www.solar-electric.com/



RST Engineering wrote:

After much thought and ponderance, I've come to the conclusion that to
electrify the hangar using Pacific Gas & Electricity (PG&E -- Pigs, Goats,
and Elephants) isn't clever. By the time you get them to hang a meter
($5k), trench from the power pole to the end of the row of hangars, conduit
romex to 35 hangars at a cost somewhere around $50k ($1500 per hangar), and
then pay the monthly electric bill, you could buy a hell of a wind/solar
system and perch it on the (flat) hangar roof.

Before I flail about gathering data, has anybody on these ngs actually
installed a design whereby a hefty solar panel charges a hefty battery to
run a hefty inverter? It doesn't have to be absolutely "clean" sinewave
power as all we are running are fluorescent shop lights (about 400 watts
worth), every now and again a small compressor, a small drill press, a small
grinder, but none of these last few at the same time.

My hit on it is that a 2 kW inverter would be more than enough to handle the
AC side of it, and a bank of 12 volt truck batteries would work for the DC
side of it, but there are the problems of parallelling large batteries, how
to combine the outputs of solar cells and wind generators, and a reasonable
source for all this stuff.

There are issues around protecting the solar cells from hail, which we do
get from time to time, battery acidic gases inside a hangar where a very
expensive lump of aluminum is sitting for months on end, sizing the solar
cell and wind generators, and other considerations along these lines.

Comments appreciated.


Jim


  #8  
Old December 15th 05, 12:54 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning,sci.electronics.design
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Wind/Solar Electrics ???


The generator can provide battery charging capability should the sun or wind
let you down.

"RST Engineering" wrote in message
...
With a small solar panel to keep the continuous load going, not a bad way

to
go.

Jim

Seems running a generator would be simpler and cheaper.






  #9  
Old December 15th 05, 01:13 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning,sci.electronics.design
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Wind/Solar Electrics ???

RST Engineering wrote:

After much thought and ponderance, I've come to the conclusion that to
electrify the hangar using Pacific Gas & Electricity (PG&E -- Pigs, Goats,
and Elephants) isn't clever. By the time you get them to hang a meter
($5k), trench from the power pole to the end of the row of hangars, conduit
romex to 35 hangars at a cost somewhere around $50k ($1500 per hangar), and
then pay the monthly electric bill, you could buy a hell of a wind/solar
system and perch it on the (flat) hangar roof.

Before I flail about gathering data, has anybody on these ngs actually
installed a design whereby a hefty solar panel charges a hefty battery to
run a hefty inverter? It doesn't have to be absolutely "clean" sinewave
power as all we are running are fluorescent shop lights (about 400 watts
worth), every now and again a small compressor, a small drill press, a small
grinder, but none of these last few at the same time.

My hit on it is that a 2 kW inverter would be more than enough to handle the
AC side of it, and a bank of 12 volt truck batteries would work for the DC
side of it, but there are the problems of parallelling large batteries, how
to combine the outputs of solar cells and wind generators, and a reasonable
source for all this stuff.

There are issues around protecting the solar cells from hail, which we do
get from time to time, battery acidic gases inside a hangar where a very
expensive lump of aluminum is sitting for months on end, sizing the solar
cell and wind generators, and other considerations along these lines.

Comments appreciated.


Jim


First, check on that price again. One thing I learned a while back is,
that while that is THEIR price, if you go to an electrical contractor
and get a quote for the same work for less, they have to match it! You
can save big bucks that way. The only part they HAVE to do is mount and
connect the meter. All the rest you can get your own electrician for.

If you want to go solar, make a single closet like room, with venting
directly outside. Don't use truck batteries, you need deep cycle types.
You still end up doing all the wiring from hangar to hangar, and the
solar cells and batteries aren't cheap. Neither is the inverter. There
might not be as much of a diffence as you would like.

Charlie
  #10  
Old December 15th 05, 01:54 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning,sci.electronics.design
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Default Wind/Solar Electrics ???

It could be done, but you'll spend about $8-9 a watt with no rebates cause your not grid connected.

Vist the homepower news groups. Or www.homepower.com

You'll need a generator backup, diesel preferred.

Calculations for Autonomy, days with out sun.

Calculations for collector plate angle, for winter months.

Possibly a licensed electrician to install. Depends on local codes.

All systems are only %70-74 of their actual panel ratings, So keep this in mind. (its an efficiency thing)

And probably a large 1000's of amp hours battery bank to meet the autonomy specs.
Assuming 8hrs for lighting, 2K @ 8hrs (24v) is 666AH, usually Autonomy is 4-5 days. So your looking at 2000-3000 of AH battery
capacity. (no cheep truck deep cycles here) Plus you'll need to charge them with the PV's ;D.



Cheers


"RST Engineering" wrote in message .. .
After much thought and ponderance, I've come to the conclusion that to
electrify the hangar using Pacific Gas & Electricity (PG&E -- Pigs, Goats,
and Elephants) isn't clever. By the time you get them to hang a meter
($5k), trench from the power pole to the end of the row of hangars, conduit
romex to 35 hangars at a cost somewhere around $50k ($1500 per hangar), and
then pay the monthly electric bill, you could buy a hell of a wind/solar
system and perch it on the (flat) hangar roof.

Before I flail about gathering data, has anybody on these ngs actually
installed a design whereby a hefty solar panel charges a hefty battery to
run a hefty inverter? It doesn't have to be absolutely "clean" sinewave
power as all we are running are fluorescent shop lights (about 400 watts
worth), every now and again a small compressor, a small drill press, a small
grinder, but none of these last few at the same time.

My hit on it is that a 2 kW inverter would be more than enough to handle the
AC side of it, and a bank of 12 volt truck batteries would work for the DC
side of it, but there are the problems of parallelling large batteries, how
to combine the outputs of solar cells and wind generators, and a reasonable
source for all this stuff.

There are issues around protecting the solar cells from hail, which we do
get from time to time, battery acidic gases inside a hangar where a very
expensive lump of aluminum is sitting for months on end, sizing the solar
cell and wind generators, and other considerations along these lines.

Comments appreciated.


Jim




 




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