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"The New Soldier" by John Kerry et al
Apparently John Kerry co-authored a book in 1971 called "The New
Soldier." There seems to be varying differences of opinion about how much of it he actually wrote (other than his US Senate testimony during the "Winter Soldier" hearings), but his name is certainly prominently displayed on the cover (see http://www.newsmax.com/images/headli...NewSoldier.jpg or http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjoh...newsol_cov.jpg). Copies are apparently going for several hundreds of dollars on eBay; talk of a cover-up and the liberal Democrats trying to destroy all copies seem far-fetched (try finding copies of any obscure book from 1971), although there are rumours that both copies are currently 'unavailable' at the Library of Congress. Has anyone with military service actually read "The New Soldier" and can comment on it contents? His "Winter Soldier" testimony apparently quoted in the book is certainly still controversial: "Much of Kerry's speech before Congress painted his fellow GIs as so brutal that, today, they could easily be mistaken for Saddam Hussein's Fedayeen killers. He reported to Congress that U.S. soldiers had "personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam." There's a NGO link quoting some of Kerry's testimony at: http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjoh...er_sfrc_71.htm. There are also discussions of the accuracy of the testimony, such as: "After Senator Mark O. Hatfield read the Winter Soldier testimony into the Congressional Record, he asked for an official investigation. When the Naval Investigate Service did just that, many of the veterans refused to cooperate (despite protections against self-incrimination). One soldier admitted that his testimony had been coached by members of the Nation of Islam; exact details of the atrocity he'd seen now escaped his memory. Several veterans hunted down by Naval investigators swore they had never been to Detroit and couldn't imagine who would have used their identities. (Somehow this episode was left out of the "Winter Soldier" chapter of Brinkley's book, but the details can be found in Guenter Lewy's "America in Vietnam" and in Mackubin Thomas Owens's account in the latest National Review.)" - http://www.weeklystandard.com/Conten...ljiby.asp?pg=2 Lots of conflicting stories, such as: - http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/k/kerry.htm - http://www.nationalreview.com/lowry/...0402130943.asp - http://www.newsmax.com/archives/arti...0/131219.shtml |
#2
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Were you even alive in those days?
Here is the deal. It will never be settled. It wasn't settled back then and it won't be settled now. For the next several elections, the candidates will all have been on the wrong side of the argument according to some folks. Bottom line is: we all took our stands at the time, all were flawed by a system that was inherently flawed and there were no winners. Just let it go. Loki "Stop SPAM" wrote in message ... Apparently John Kerry co-authored a book in 1971 called "The New Soldier." There seems to be varying differences of opinion about how much of it he actually wrote (other than his US Senate testimony during the "Winter Soldier" hearings), but his name is certainly prominently displayed on the cover (see http://www.newsmax.com/images/headli...NewSoldier.jpg or http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjoh...newsol_cov.jpg). Copies are apparently going for several hundreds of dollars on eBay; talk of a cover-up and the liberal Democrats trying to destroy all copies seem far-fetched (try finding copies of any obscure book from 1971), although there are rumours that both copies are currently 'unavailable' at the Library of Congress. Has anyone with military service actually read "The New Soldier" and can comment on it contents? His "Winter Soldier" testimony apparently quoted in the book is certainly still controversial: "Much of Kerry's speech before Congress painted his fellow GIs as so brutal that, today, they could easily be mistaken for Saddam Hussein's Fedayeen killers. He reported to Congress that U.S. soldiers had "personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam." There's a NGO link quoting some of Kerry's testimony at: http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjoh...er_sfrc_71.htm. There are also discussions of the accuracy of the testimony, such as: "After Senator Mark O. Hatfield read the Winter Soldier testimony into the Congressional Record, he asked for an official investigation. When the Naval Investigate Service did just that, many of the veterans refused to cooperate (despite protections against self-incrimination). One soldier admitted that his testimony had been coached by members of the Nation of Islam; exact details of the atrocity he'd seen now escaped his memory. Several veterans hunted down by Naval investigators swore they had never been to Detroit and couldn't imagine who would have used their identities. (Somehow this episode was left out of the "Winter Soldier" chapter of Brinkley's book, but the details can be found in Guenter Lewy's "America in Vietnam" and in Mackubin Thomas Owens's account in the latest National Review.)" - http://www.weeklystandard.com/Conten...ljiby.asp?pg=2 Lots of conflicting stories, such as: - http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/k/kerry.htm - http://www.nationalreview.com/lowry/...0402130943.asp - http://www.newsmax.com/archives/arti...0/131219.shtml |
#3
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loki wrote:
Were you even alive in those days? Yes I was, and in fact I well remember Kerry's "Winter Soldier" testimony. Here is the deal. It will never be settled. It wasn't settled back then and it won't be settled now. For the next several elections, the candidates will all have been on the wrong side of the argument according to some folks. I'm not interested in whether or not it is "being settled." You're right - the Vietnam conflict never will "be settled". The issue, to me, is not "settling" Vietnam. I can respect someone who is totally anti-war. They have their opinion, I have mine, and we live in a land where the First Amendment gives us both the right to have and publically state that opinion... But I abhore someone who tries to fence sit and take conflicting stands on an issue, any issue, much less one as important as the military. Kerry, IMHO, is trying to be on both sides of the issue. Trying to run as a combat vet and on your war record, and then being involved in serious protests against not only the war but against the military and its soldiers (read Kerry's "Winter Soldier" testimony and see what he says about American soldiers) is trying to work both sides of the issue. I'd rather have a politician who disagrees with me, but who is at least consistent in their views, than one who will change their beliefs at the drop of a hat depending on what their political consultants and pollsters tell them. And that applies equally to both the Republicans and the Democrats. Bottom line is: we all took our stands at the time, all were flawed by a system that was inherently flawed and there were no winners. Just let it go. When politicians become consistent, I will. Of course, porcines may need FAA clearance before then, but I can always hope. Loki "Stop SPAM" wrote in message ... Apparently John Kerry co-authored a book in 1971 called "The New Soldier." There seems to be varying differences of opinion about how much of it he actually wrote (other than his US Senate testimony during the "Winter Soldier" hearings), but his name is certainly prominently displayed on the cover (see http://www.newsmax.com/images/headli...NewSoldier.jpg or http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjoh...newsol_cov.jpg). Copies are apparently going for several hundreds of dollars on eBay; talk of a cover-up and the liberal Democrats trying to destroy all copies seem far-fetched (try finding copies of any obscure book from 1971), although there are rumours that both copies are currently 'unavailable' at the Library of Congress. Has anyone with military service actually read "The New Soldier" and can comment on it contents? His "Winter Soldier" testimony apparently quoted in the book is certainly still controversial: "Much of Kerry's speech before Congress painted his fellow GIs as so brutal that, today, they could easily be mistaken for Saddam Hussein's Fedayeen killers. He reported to Congress that U.S. soldiers had "personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam." There's a NGO link quoting some of Kerry's testimony at: http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjoh...er_sfrc_71.htm. There are also discussions of the accuracy of the testimony, such as: "After Senator Mark O. Hatfield read the Winter Soldier testimony into the Congressional Record, he asked for an official investigation. When the Naval Investigate Service did just that, many of the veterans refused to cooperate (despite protections against self-incrimination). One soldier admitted that his testimony had been coached by members of the Nation of Islam; exact details of the atrocity he'd seen now escaped his memory. Several veterans hunted down by Naval investigators swore they had never been to Detroit and couldn't imagine who would have used their identities. (Somehow this episode was left out of the "Winter Soldier" chapter of Brinkley's book, but the details can be found in Guenter Lewy's "America in Vietnam" and in Mackubin Thomas Owens's account in the latest National Review.)" - http://www.weeklystandard.com/Conten...ljiby.asp?pg=2 Lots of conflicting stories, such as: - http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/k/kerry.htm - http://www.nationalreview.com/lowry/...0402130943.asp - http://www.newsmax.com/archives/arti...0/131219.shtml |
#4
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Here is the deal. It will never be settled. It wasn't settled back then
and it won't be settled now. For the next several elections, the candidates will all have been on the wrong side of the argument according to some folks. Bottom line is: we all took our stands at the time, all were flawed by a system that was inherently flawed and there were no winners. Just let it go. Well, like it or not, it's all on the table again. I guess since the Libs think they have a bona fide war "hero" in their ranks, they can somehow finally make hay over VN. It's a perverse sort of logic, but that's what they think. That's okay. Frankly, I'm interested in what else is in Mr Kerry's VN personnel file besides the medals. Has he released it? Then there's his conduct immediately after the war, which doesn't seem all that distinquished to me. http://www.nationalreview.com/owens/owens.asp You can see, I think, that Kerry came upon his plan to run for President fairly early and has structured his behavior accordingly. The above comports, so far, with my assessment of Kerry: he's a typical liberal: arrogant, condescending, two-faced and a liar, and opposed to a strong America, which amounts to affirmative action for 3rd world dictators and the like. Politically, he favors the French view of the ideal US, i.e., the US needs to be subservient to the international "community," which means old Europe and France again. In short, he's a proponent of multilateralism, UN, weakened military and intelligence community etc. http://www.weeklystandard.com/Conten...dmula.asp?pg=1 Course this anti-military, anti-intelligence stands him in good stead with the libs. He can claim to be a military man and yet be anti-military. He can vote against DoD and intelligence appropriations, yet complain that the military is spread too thin or point out intelligence failures. Constrast this behavior to say the typical liberal take on education. The US education system is a shambles, mostly as a result of liberal policies and practices, but what do they do? Advocate more money! If you translate this to defense, which I'd say is certainly as important as education, they advocate spending less money. Then there's Kerry, the man. Well, we've already got some indication of what kind of person he is with his post Vietnam demogoguery. Do these latest allegations about his personal life affirm or contradict that? http://www.nationalreview.com/commen...alen120502.asp He's a man concerned about attaining wealth, witness his marriages to wealthy women, and the acquistion of power. He sounds a lot like Bill Clinton, but he's not a charmer. wd |
#5
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He can claim to be a military man and yet be anti-military. In short, the man Joe Ellis wished he had been? all the best -- Dan Ford email: see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com |
#6
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Lo, many moons past, on Fri, 13 Feb 2004 10:46:07 -0600, a stranger
called by some Stop SPAM came forth and told this tale in us.military.army He reported to Congress that U.S. soldiers had "personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam." They did. Vietnam was a brutal conflict, and near the end American command and control began breaking down. Soldiers did do all these tuhings, feeling abandoned by their nation and service. It was a horrible time. -- Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail WE *ARE* UMA Lemmings 404 Local |
#7
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"Douglas Berry" wrote in message ... Lo, many moons past, on Fri, 13 Feb 2004 10:46:07 -0600, a stranger called by some Stop SPAM came forth and told this tale in us.military.army He reported to Congress that U.S. soldiers had "personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam." They did. Vietnam was a brutal conflict, and near the end American command and control began breaking down. Soldiers did do all these tuhings, feeling abandoned by their nation and service. It was a horrible time. Just what the hell do you know about it? It was painted as horrible by the News Media that kept getting in the road along with wimpy Politicians that played to the Media. Neither was the reality yet that is what you saw and even today, the media will still report it the same way. By 1973, South Vietnam WAS a better place and self governed. There was very little fightin going on after that until 1975 when the North Invaded. Up until 1975, the North had problems even raising and equipping a small army. The Tet offensive (all parts of it) and the 1972 attacks into Loas and Cambodia by the US, Thailand, South Korea, Australia and a host of others removed their ability to wage any type of war. It was the Politicos and the media that lost it, not the troops. The Troops won it only to have it handed to the North on a Silver Platter. You keep reading your slanted crap but others of us will report what really went on. Kerry is a politico and not a Warrior and anything he had to do with the organization that Jane Fonda was in would have been considered treasonise under WWII, Korea or WWI and back and would have been punishable by up to death. We sure have come a long way when a Traitor gets to run for president. Harry S. where are you when we need you. |
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Lo, many moons past, on Fri, 13 Feb 2004 14:32:48 -0700, a stranger
called by some "Admin" came forth and told this tale in us.military.army "Douglas Berry" wrote in message .. . Lo, many moons past, on Fri, 13 Feb 2004 10:46:07 -0600, a stranger called by some Stop SPAM came forth and told this tale in us.military.army He reported to Congress that U.S. soldiers had "personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam." They did. Vietnam was a brutal conflict, and near the end American command and control began breaking down. Soldiers did do all these tuhings, feeling abandoned by their nation and service. It was a horrible time. Just what the hell do you know about it? It was painted as horrible by the News Media that kept getting in the road along with wimpy Politicians that played to the Media. Neither was the reality yet that is what you saw and even today, the media will still report it the same way. By 1973, South Vietnam WAS a better place and self governed. There was very little fightin going on after that until 1975 when the North Invaded. Up until 1975, the North had problems even raising and equipping a small army. The Tet offensive (all parts of it) and the 1972 attacks into Loas and Cambodia by the US, Thailand, South Korea, Australia and a host of others removed their ability to wage any type of war. It was the Politicos and the media that lost it, not the troops. The Troops won it only to have it handed to the North on a Silver Platter. That's an interesting take on the situation. You keep reading your slanted crap but others of us will report what really went on. Daryl, I get my information from reading histories written by the people who fought the war, reading the Pentagon Papers, and reading about the North's view of the war. Kerry is a politico and not a Warrior and anything he had to do with the organization that Jane Fonda was in would have been considered treasonise under WWII, Korea or WWI and back and would have been punishable by up to death. We sure have come a long way when a Traitor gets to run for president. Harry S. where are you when we need you. Kerry commanded a river patrol boat, won a Silver Star, a Bronze Star with V device, and was aounded in combat three times. And unlike you, he can prove it. Oh, and treasonous? Maybe you need to read the Constitution.. specifically, the Bill of Rights. "Amendment I Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances." As a founding member of Vietnam Veterans Against the War, John Kerry agitated to end the war in Vietnam. That's an activity allowed by the First Amendment. So now we can add "anti-American" to your resume. -- Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail WE *ARE* UMA Lemmings 404 Local |
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"Douglas Berry" wrote in message ... Lo, many moons past, on Fri, 13 Feb 2004 14:32:48 -0700, a stranger called by some "Admin" came forth and told this tale in us.military.army "Douglas Berry" wrote in message .. . Lo, many moons past, on Fri, 13 Feb 2004 10:46:07 -0600, a stranger called by some Stop SPAM came forth and told this tale in us.military.army He reported to Congress that U.S. soldiers had "personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam." They did. Vietnam was a brutal conflict, and near the end American command and control began breaking down. Soldiers did do all these tuhings, feeling abandoned by their nation and service. It was a horrible time. Just what the hell do you know about it? It was painted as horrible by the News Media that kept getting in the road along with wimpy Politicians that played to the Media. Neither was the reality yet that is what you saw and even today, the media will still report it the same way. By 1973, South Vietnam WAS a better place and self governed. There was very little fightin going on after that until 1975 when the North Invaded. Up until 1975, the North had problems even raising and equipping a small army. The Tet offensive (all parts of it) and the 1972 attacks into Loas and Cambodia by the US, Thailand, South Korea, Australia and a host of others removed their ability to wage any type of war. It was the Politicos and the media that lost it, not the troops. The Troops won it only to have it handed to the North on a Silver Platter. That's an interesting take on the situation. Those that served know. Those that didn't, read the news and believe. You keep reading your slanted crap but others of us will report what really went on. Daryl, I get my information from reading histories written by the people who fought the war, reading the Pentagon Papers, and reading about the North's view of the war. It's funny. 30 years later, most of what is written by those that were there contradicts itself. There are so many stories out there. Just how many are really there to just sell a book? Kerry is a politico and not a Warrior and anything he had to do with the organization that Jane Fonda was in would have been considered treasonise under WWII, Korea or WWI and back and would have been punishable by up to death. We sure have come a long way when a Traitor gets to run for president. Harry S. where are you when we need you. Kerry commanded a river patrol boat, won a Silver Star, a Bronze Star with V device, and was aounded in combat three times. And unlike you, he can prove it. I don't have to prove it anymore than you should. Double Standard there, ol buddy. Kerry did get the medals. Now whether they were earned or not, that is questionable. While medals weren't given out at the rate they are today, some go them for political reasons back then. Oh, it's thursday, let's give the Congressman's kid a medal so I can make General someday. Oh, and treasonous? Maybe you need to read the Constitution.. specifically, the Bill of Rights. "Amendment I Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances." As a founding member of Vietnam Veterans Against the War, John Kerry agitated to end the war in Vietnam. That's an activity allowed by the First Amendment. During WWII and back, he would have been branded a traitor or an agitator at the least. I don't think you realize the unneeded deaths that resulted by actions of the politicaly powerful. They were misguided and the extremists took it to heart. The Media picked up on it and ran with it. This was the first time in the history of the US that the media was allowed to report like this. And take it from me, it was mostly hogwash when General Abrams took over in 1969. I wasn't there for Westmoreland but got there at about the time Abrams took over. The word from some to the old timers was that the whole flavor changed much to the better. For the first time we could actually engage the enemy. At first, our gunships could not return fire and got shotup on a regular basis. We lost Aircrew Members to Flak. Flak vests don't help much when you take it in the crotch when it's the round is larger than a 50mm. Not much left. Abrams allowed us to fire back. We could only suppress but the Attack birds could get in close enough for the kill. Without us suppressing, the Attack Birds took losses on the way in. A really stupid way to fight a war. That changed. So now we can add "anti-American" to your resume. Not all. But many of us Vietnam Vets see Kerry as just that. Whether he was right or wrong, it costed lives needlessly. |
#10
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"Admin" wrote:
:I don't have to prove it anymore than you should. Double Standard there, ol :buddy. Kerry did get the medals. Now whether they were earned or not, that :is questionable. While medals weren't given out at the rate they are today, :some go them for political reasons back then. Oh, it's thursday, let's give :the Congressman's kid a medal so I can make General someday. That sort of thing pretty much stopped at Bronze Star. Kerry got a Silver Star. That sort of thing was also more common (I'm told) in the Army and Air Force than elsewhere. Kerry was Navy. I judge by what is going on now. Kerry lost a lot of credibility with me when he originally jumped on board Terry McAuliffe's lunacy about Bush's 'desertion' from the ANG. It shows he's made of the same putrid stuff that those who went to Florida and argued that military votes should be invalidated were. McAuliffe may energize the loon fringes of the Democratic Party, but they need to get rid of him. He alienates everyone else, and those are the voters you need to win. -- "Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar territory." --G. Behn |
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