If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#41
|
|||
|
|||
|
#42
|
|||
|
|||
"Tex Houston" wrote in message "Bob's Your Uncle" wrote in message In In this reference, as is typical, the AOB who wrote the story got it wrong. the Pilots were known as 4, count 'em 4 -headed Monsters, 1.Pilot, 2. Navigator, 3. Bombardier, 4. Radar Observer. They were RATED in all 4 Specialties and entitled to wear all 4 sets of Wings. I know of two references to multi-headed monsters in B-47 units, one, the original program (Mather AFB?) in which the bombardier/navigator/RADAR observer graduates were called that and two, the follow-on where some of these people went to flight school and became pilot/bombardier/navigators also called triple headed monsters. The 1st reference is to Navigators and Bombardiers of the WWII era who went to Mather, NEVER were those AOB Graduate referrred to as 3-Headed monsters, in SAC. The Pilots, however, 1st went USAF Navigator School in Ellington AFB, TX, then to Mather, to the same school and training,the Navigators and Bombardiers went to for upgrading their WWII ratings. In no case do I ever remember four-headed term being used. Realize this though...back then I was mostly an air defense type and was not that familiar with B-47 units. If you were in SAC Tex, you would have known. Too bad this subject had not come up before as I had breakfast in Phoenix last month with a B-47 pilot. Trust me. Regards, Tex Houston |
#43
|
|||
|
|||
"Tex Houston" wrote in message ... "Bob's Your Uncle" wrote in message Never heard of a Bombardier-Navigator. Regards, Tex What I meant to say was never heard of a Navigator-Bombardier in WWII. The B-26/A-26 self-described Bombardier-Navigators were just that. None of them were dual rated and were classified as Bombardiers. They were given rudimentary Dead Reckoning, map reading and E-6B training. Then the aircraft manufacturers designated the chap in the nose, a Bombardier-Navigator. The USAAC, the USAAF and the USAF never had a Military Occupational Specialty Code or Air Force Specialty Code for a Navigator-Bombardier or a Bombardier-Navigator, nor was there a set of Wings that identified such a person or Aeronautical Rating. |
#44
|
|||
|
|||
"Bob's Your Uncle" wrote in message ... If you were in SAC Tex, you would have known. 44SMW 63-66, Headquarters 15th Air Force 66-68, 92BW, 69-72. Sounds like SAC to me. Tex |
#45
|
|||
|
|||
It is inevitable that individuals who through no fault of their own
are doing what they are told are going to be looked down upon because of higher level policy decisions. Understand. SAC remained a specified command and not chopped to PACAF or 7th AF for employment. This very issue is the core of Michel's book, "Eleven Days of Christmas." Yeah, Michel pretty much blames SAC for everything that went wrong in the world after 1966, but that doesn't change the fact he was correct about their involvement in what went wrong during LB II. Excuse me? If the prisoner release had been agreed to in October (when Kissinger announced "peace was at hand", why were will still bombing NVN below 20 degrees N. throughout November? Because Nixon didn't want to give the NVN the impression that by simply agreeing to the Paris Peace Accord in principle, they were going to get relief before they signed it. Secondly, and even more important, Nixon knew he was leaving Theiu in a bad position. There were tens of thousands of NVA across the border in South Vietnam and the Paris Peace Accord required the removal of *none* of them. Nixon knew Thieu would take issue with it (and he did, this was the main reason he wouldn't agree with the Paris Peace Accord. Of course, SVN was not a signatory to it, so it only mattered to Nixon and Kissenger that Thieu agreed) and he was determined to make the situation south of 20-North as positive as possible for Thieu and SVN. The NVN/VC walked out in Paris in November when we suspended bombing and refused to sign an agreement. We suspended bombing north of the 20th on 18 October, as a good will gesture, since Nixon believed the NVN were finally bargaining in "good faith". The NVN walked out of the peace talks on 13 Dec, they didn't just walk out for the hell of it. They walked out for two reasons; 1. We returned with new demands that included the removal of all NVA troops and Viet Cong insurgeants. Le Duc Tho had never even admitted that any NVA troops had crossed into SVN and he was sure as hell not going to sign an agreement removing troops he had always denied were there. The second reason goes hand-in-hand with the first. As the delay grew for the final signing of the Paris Peace Accord, several democratic congressman publically called for a House and Senate vote on suspending funding for the war in SE Asia. Suddenly NVN could see themselves getting everything they wanted without having to give up anything. As soon as we returned with new demands, Le Duc Tho took a gamble and walked out. All LB II did was show Tho that Nixon could still pull off strong military action without an uproar (or even a vote on funding) from congress. Once Tho realized he wasn't going to get the whole enchillada, he returned to sign *the original* peace accord. Linebacker I was significantly more effective than Rolling Thunder. Agree. But, the damage inflicted by LB II was the decisive factor. I'll have to disagree with you there Ed. I did a lot of research for a 40 page masters thesis and nearly every target struck during LB II had either already been struck during LB I or was struck repeatedly during LB II basically turning over rubble. Ed, B-52s alone dropped over 4,000 M-117 on the Kinh No railyard...which had already been 60% disabled in November. BUFFs dropped over 3,000 M-117 on the Thai Nguyen Thermal Power Plant....also struck repeatedly in November. I mean, come on Ed, they sent 36 B-52 sorties after the damn Hanoi Radio site, dropped over 3,000 bombs, lost 4 B-52s and never even took the damn thing out. On day #9 a pair of F-4Es hit it with a few LGBs and knocked it off the air for months. No Ed, I'm going to have to disagree, we were mainly turning over rubble and making a political statement during those days and nights. Academic interpretation of the events will not prevail as long as there are a bunch of us participants still around to speak the truth. I'm sorry Ed, but I've researched every target hit by B-52s during LB II and even the ones struck for the first time (and there were only 3 or 4) were hit again and again. I used an accuracy of 1000 feet and plugged the numbers into todays targeteering software and the .pd inflicted on nearly every BUFF target was .8 or better after being struck the second time. Problem is most targets were hit 3, 4 or even 5 times. I know you've seen me say this to Kramer before Ed, but just because you were a participant doesn't mean you've got an accurate view of events. On a similar subject, I'll be attending Army General Command & Staff College next year at Ft. Leavenworth and I just received my "book report" reading list for the Air Force prep course preceeding the Army course (basic Air Force 101 I guess ??). #21 on a list of 26 was "When Thunder Rolled". I guess I'll have to pick it up Ed. Looking forward to reading it. BUFDRVR "Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips everyone on Bear Creek" |
#46
|
|||
|
|||
Subject: Friendly Fire Notebook
From: Ed Rasimus Date: 4/15/04 3:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time It is inevitable that individuals who through no fault of their own are doing what they are told are going to be looked down upon because of higher level policy decisions. The various interpretations were that SAC was "too valuable Guys who died in bombers were just as dead as guys who died in fighters. Arthur Kramer 344th BG 494th BS England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer |
#47
|
|||
|
|||
"Tex Houston" wrote in message .com... "Bob's Your Uncle" wrote in message If you were in SAC Tex, you would have known. 44SMW 63-66, Headquarters 15th Air Force 66-68, 92BW, 69-72. Sounds like SAC to me. Little late in the argument as you yourself just said- :-) "In no case do I ever remember four-headed term being used. Realize this though...back then I was mostly an air defense type and was not that familiar with B-47 units. Tex |
#48
|
|||
|
|||
|
#49
|
|||
|
|||
"BUFDRVR" wrote in message ... When I recounted to him that I had been told he would take offense at "BN" he looked some what quizzical, shrugged and said "No." "That's what I was, a Radar Navigator Bombardier." He's much more laid back then other Radar vets I've met. The term "BN" is short for Bombardier Navigator, which depending on airframe could imply the job description of operating the bombing radar, but not always. Seems the guys I've met try to seperate themselves from non-Radar bombing types. Current RN's don't really seem to care either way, at least most don't. Well, he comes from a bit before your time. I'm not sure but I think a bit before Ed's time as well. I know he flew missions over 'Nam but I don't think I've ever heard him mentioning Hanoi. Says the last time he went to an air show and looked up in the bomb bay he recognized some of the mods they worked on while he was at Boeing |
#50
|
|||
|
|||
"buf3" wrote in message om... I went to AOB(Air Observer, Bombardier) School at James Connally AFB, TX in 1957 on my way from pilot training to a co-pilot position in RB-47s at Little Rock AFB. It was a six month school with training in dead reckoning, celestial navigation, radar navigation and radar bombing. We picked up an additional rating, another set of wings and were called "Triple-Headed-Monsters". Gene Myers What does an "Air Observer" do? |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
"Friendly fire" | Mike | Military Aviation | 0 | March 19th 04 02:36 PM |
B-52 crew blamed for friendly fire death | Paul Hirose | Military Aviation | 0 | March 16th 04 12:49 AM |
U.S. won't have to reveal other friendly fire events: Schmidt's lawyers hoped to use other incidents to help their case | Otis Willie | Military Aviation | 0 | December 18th 03 08:44 PM |
Fire officer tops in field — again | Otis Willie | Military Aviation | 0 | October 13th 03 08:37 PM |
Friendly fire pilot may testify against wingman | Otis Willie | Military Aviation | 0 | October 11th 03 09:32 PM |