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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"



 
 
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  #341  
Old March 23rd 10, 08:41 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Peter Skelton
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 93
Default "Vanishing American Air Superiority"

On Tue, 23 Mar 2010 11:51:20 -0700 (PDT), Jim Wilkins
wrote:

On Mar 23, 11:21*am, Chris wrote:
On Mar 23, 12:55*am, -did-not-set--mail-host-address--

so-tickle-me wrote:
I'm not sure, maybe you know: I assumed the Japanese were good until
they lost their best attack and dive bomber pilots; and this problem was


It's hard to say precisely: but looking at losses, the Japanese lost
somewhere between 100 and 150 carrier qual'd aircrew at each of the
first couple of carrier battles. The Guadalcanal campaign as a whole
cost the Japanese Navy over 2800 planes, though, so you can see that
it would be where the majority of the pre-war elite died.

Defending fighters breaking up attacks would be the norm anywhere I
suppose, regardless of how well-trained the attacking pilots are.


What is impressive about the Japanese early war aircrew is that
defending fighters often didn't break up the attacks, even when they
were in a position to intercept. Examine the Hiryu's airgroup pair of
attacks on Yorktown at Midway and notice that despite intense losses,
on both occasions the crews got in and hit their targets and did their
damage.

Chris Manteuffel


The relevance is if known Japanese experience predicts how well the
Germans might have done against the RN. To what extent had the skilled
attack pilots been lost during the BoB?

nothing from nothing leaves nothing

Peter Skelton
  #342  
Old March 23rd 10, 08:55 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Chris
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 14
Default "Vanishing American Air Superiority"

On Mar 23, 2:51*pm, Jim Wilkins wrote:

The relevance is if known Japanese experience predicts how well the
Germans might have done against the RN. To what extent had the skilled
attack pilots been lost during the BoB?


Germany never had pilots as skilled at hitting ships as the Japanese
did at the beginning of the war. If you want to know how the Germans
might have done against the RN during Sealion, look at their fairly
poor experience at Crete (as an example, or the convoy battles around
Malta as another) about a year later, with pilots who had some
training in attacking ships (Fliegerkorps X was not ready to attack
ships until January 1941 or thereabouts).

My entire point has been that any comparison between the Japanese and
the Germans is a waste of time, because the Japanese were so much
better. If you want to understand how effective the Germans would have
been, you have to look at their complete inability to stop the RN in
the Med. Basing any conclusions about the Germans on the Japanese is a
false equivalence.

Chris Manteuffel
  #343  
Old March 23rd 10, 08:58 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Bill Kambic[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 49
Default "Vanishing American Air Superiority"

On Tue, 23 Mar 2010 11:51:20 -0700 (PDT), Jim Wilkins
wrote:

On Mar 23, 11:21*am, Chris wrote:
On Mar 23, 12:55*am, -did-not-set--mail-host-address--

so-tickle-me wrote:
I'm not sure, maybe you know: I assumed the Japanese were good until
they lost their best attack and dive bomber pilots; and this problem was


It's hard to say precisely: but looking at losses, the Japanese lost
somewhere between 100 and 150 carrier qual'd aircrew at each of the
first couple of carrier battles. The Guadalcanal campaign as a whole
cost the Japanese Navy over 2800 planes, though, so you can see that
it would be where the majority of the pre-war elite died.

Defending fighters breaking up attacks would be the norm anywhere I
suppose, regardless of how well-trained the attacking pilots are.


What is impressive about the Japanese early war aircrew is that
defending fighters often didn't break up the attacks, even when they
were in a position to intercept. Examine the Hiryu's airgroup pair of
attacks on Yorktown at Midway and notice that despite intense losses,
on both occasions the crews got in and hit their targets and did their
damage.

Chris Manteuffel


The relevance is if known Japanese experience predicts how well the
Germans might have done against the RN. To what extent had the skilled
attack pilots been lost during the BoB?


IIRC the RAF and the Luftwaffe both had extensive air-sea rescue
programs. If I further remember correctly the IJN had none. So a
Brit or Jerry knocked down had a chance of rescue and return to duty.
An Jap who got shot down just learned it was his time to die for the
Emperor.

This was a serious waste of manpower by the IJN, but was completely
consistent with with their "warrior ethic." While that might (note
the conditional) have made sense in 1742 by 1942 it was the height of
foolishness.

Further, again from memory, the Germans had a much more robust
replacement pilot program than did the Japanese.



jsw

  #344  
Old March 23rd 10, 09:12 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Jack Linthicum
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 301
Default "Vanishing American Air Superiority"

On Mar 23, 3:58*pm, Bill Kambic wrote:
On Tue, 23 Mar 2010 11:51:20 -0700 (PDT), Jim Wilkins



wrote:
On Mar 23, 11:21 am, Chris wrote:
On Mar 23, 12:55 am, -did-not-set--mail-host-address--


so-tickle-me wrote:
I'm not sure, maybe you know: I assumed the Japanese were good until
they lost their best attack and dive bomber pilots; and this problem was


It's hard to say precisely: but looking at losses, the Japanese lost
somewhere between 100 and 150 carrier qual'd aircrew at each of the
first couple of carrier battles. The Guadalcanal campaign as a whole
cost the Japanese Navy over 2800 planes, though, so you can see that
it would be where the majority of the pre-war elite died.


Defending fighters breaking up attacks would be the norm anywhere I
suppose, regardless of how well-trained the attacking pilots are.


What is impressive about the Japanese early war aircrew is that
defending fighters often didn't break up the attacks, even when they
were in a position to intercept. Examine the Hiryu's airgroup pair of
attacks on Yorktown at Midway and notice that despite intense losses,
on both occasions the crews got in and hit their targets and did their
damage.


Chris Manteuffel


The relevance is if known Japanese experience predicts how well the
Germans might have done against the RN. To what extent had the skilled
attack pilots been lost during the BoB?


IIRC the RAF and the Luftwaffe both had extensive air-sea rescue
programs. *If I further remember correctly the IJN had none. *So a
Brit or Jerry knocked down had a chance of rescue and return to duty.
An Jap who got shot down just learned it was his time to die for the
Emperor.

This was a serious waste of manpower by the IJN, but was completely
consistent with with their "warrior ethic." *While that might (note
the conditional) have made sense in 1742 by 1942 it was the height of
foolishness.

Further, again from memory, the Germans had a much more robust
replacement pilot program than did the Japanese.



jsw




The German air sea rescue operations were sea-planes escorted in one
instance by 12 Bf 109s, the German pilots got flotation devices and
all the requisite gear if they had to land in the sea. The RAF had
none of those. But they did have rescue boats instead of big white sea
planes covered with 8 red crosses.
  #345  
Old March 23rd 10, 10:27 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Keith Willshaw[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 42
Default "Vanishing American Air Superiority"



"Bill Kambic" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 23 Mar 2010 11:51:20 -0700 (PDT), Jim Wilkins


The relevance is if known Japanese experience predicts how well the
Germans might have done against the RN. To what extent had the skilled
attack pilots been lost during the BoB?


IIRC the RAF and the Luftwaffe both had extensive air-sea rescue
programs. If I further remember correctly the IJN had none. So a
Brit or Jerry knocked down had a chance of rescue and return to duty.
An Jap who got shot down just learned it was his time to die for the
Emperor.

This was a serious waste of manpower by the IJN, but was completely
consistent with with their "warrior ethic." While that might (note
the conditional) have made sense in 1742 by 1942 it was the height of
foolishness.


I'd argue that it made no sense in 1742 either. We know the Japanese
were not so inflexible during WW1 or the Russo Japanese war.
British troops who fought alongside the Japanese at Tsingtao
were very complimentary and the German POW's taken were
treated exceptionally well. Japanese guards who were disrespectful
towards their German 'guests' were punished.

The militarists invoked a perverted version of the code of Bushido
in the interwar period to justify their brutality in precisely the same
way the Nazis tried to portray themselves as mediaeval Knights.

The Japanese army in particular deliberately adopted a policy
of brutality within its own ranks. Japanese officers were encouraged
to beat juniors who's actions displeased them and Japanese soldiers
were taught that they could do the same to their 'inferiors'

This had no justification in the ancient warrior codes of the
Samurai, it was instead a cynical method of ensuring their
own control.


Further, again from memory, the Germans had a much more robust
replacement pilot program than did the Japanese.


Indeed but ultimately not as robust as that of the allies. By 1940
Britain and its Commonwealth alone were training more pilots
than Germany.

Keith

  #346  
Old March 23rd 10, 10:35 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Keith Willshaw[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 42
Default "Vanishing American Air Superiority"



"Jack Linthicum" wrote in message
...
On Mar 23, 3:58 pm, Bill Kambic wrote:
On Tue, 23 Mar 2010 11:51:20 -0700 (PDT), Jim Wilkins



Further, again from memory, the Germans had a much more robust
replacement pilot program than did the Japanese.



jsw




The German air sea rescue operations were sea-planes escorted in one
instance by 12 Bf 109s, the German pilots got flotation devices and
all the requisite gear if they had to land in the sea. The RAF had
none of those. But they did have rescue boats instead of big white sea
planes covered with 8 red crosses.


Later in the war the RAF had ASR flying boats as well in the shape of
the Supermarine Walrus. It is estimated that the Walrus saved around 5,000
pilots shot down around Britain and 2,500 in the Mediterranean.

Keith

  #347  
Old March 24th 10, 11:38 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Andrew Robert Breen
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 15
Default "Vanishing American Air Superiority"

In article ,
Chris wrote:
On Mar 23, 2:51*pm, Jim Wilkins wrote:

The relevance is if known Japanese experience predicts how well the
Germans might have done against the RN. To what extent had the skilled
attack pilots been lost during the BoB?


Germany never had pilots as skilled at hitting ships as the Japanese
did at the beginning of the war. If you want to know how the Germans
might have done against the RN during Sealion, look at their fairly
poor experience at Crete (as an example, or the convoy battles around
Malta as another) about a year later, with pilots who had some
training in attacking ships (Fliegerkorps X was not ready to attack
ships until January 1941 or thereabouts).


Or, even more to the point, at their capabilities during the Norway
campaign, which were pretty lamentable.

It was only after Norway that the Luftwaffe woke up to the need for
anti-shipping specialist units, but these units weren't ready in the
summer of '40 and played no part in the BoB. They debuted in the Med.
at the start of '41, where they proved much more formidable than
anything the Italians or, still more, the Germans had fielded against
ships before - but still came nowhere even close to the capability of
the Japanese naval air arm.

--
Andy Breen ~ Not speaking on behalf of the University of Wales, Aberystwyth

"Who dies with the most toys wins" (Gary Barnes)
  #348  
Old March 24th 10, 11:42 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Andrew Robert Breen
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 15
Default "Vanishing American Air Superiority"

In article ,
Jack Linthicum wrote:
On Mar 23, 3:58*pm, Bill Kambic wrote:
On Tue, 23 Mar 2010 11:51:20 -0700 (PDT), Jim Wilkins



wrote:
On Mar 23, 11:21 am, Chris wrote:
On Mar 23, 12:55 am, -did-not-set--mail-host-address--


so-tickle-me wrote:
I'm not sure, maybe you know: I assumed the Japanese were good until
they lost their best attack and dive bomber pilots; and this

problem was

What is impressive about the Japanese early war aircrew is that
defending fighters often didn't break up the attacks, even when they
were in a position to intercept. Examine the Hiryu's airgroup pair of
attacks on Yorktown at Midway and notice that despite intense losses,
on both occasions the crews got in and hit their targets and did their
damage.


The relevance is if known Japanese experience predicts how well the
Germans might have done against the RN. To what extent had the skilled
attack pilots been lost during the BoB?


IIRC the RAF and the Luftwaffe both had extensive air-sea rescue
programs. *If I further remember correctly the IJN had none. *So a
Brit or Jerry knocked down had a chance of rescue and return to duty.
An Jap who got shot down just learned it was his time to die for the
Emperor.


The German air sea rescue operations were sea-planes escorted in one
instance by 12 Bf 109s, the German pilots got flotation devices and
all the requisite gear if they had to land in the sea. The RAF had
none of those. But they did have rescue boats instead of big white sea
planes covered with 8 red crosses.


And, more pertinently, the RN also operated an exensive force of ASW
craft (adapted Fairmile MLs in the main), which were heavily armed.
Most pertinently of all, RAF air spottin g of survivors and RN/RAF
launch rescue were well-co-ordinated: this greatly increased the
chances of survivors getting picked up whilst still alive (the channel
being a cold place).

--
Andy Breen ~ Not speaking on behalf of the University of Wales, Aberystwyth

"Who dies with the most toys wins" (Gary Barnes)
 




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