A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Naval Aviation
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Defense against UAV's



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old May 31st 06, 05:54 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,sci.military.naval
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Defense against UAV's

According to:

http://en.rian.ru/onlinenews/20060530/48833304.html

An Iranian UAV was able to circle a U.S. aircraft carrier undetected
for 25 minutes.

With U.S. forces making increasing use of UAV's, the inevitable
question becomes:

How can we protect our forces against UAV's when other countries or
terrorist
organizations start using them against us?

  #2  
Old May 31st 06, 08:29 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,sci.military.naval
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Defense against UAV's


rb wrote:

Highly unlikely that it went undetected for 25 mins.
More likely it's Iranian sabre rattling again.


Regardless of the accuracy of this particular account, it is true that
UAVs pose a new problem for navies and armies, especially in the
smaller versions. Defensive systems are generally designed to detect
and destroy much bigger and more obvious targets, and even if they
manage to spot a small UAV, what would be used to shoot it down?

This is the subject of much debate at the moment. Ordinary homing
missiles may not be able to lock-on to a stealthy little UAV (and even
if they could, there's not much logic in using a very expensive missile
to shoot down a very cheap plane). A radar-directed gun system like
Phalanx might also not lock-on to such a target. The best bet at the
moment IMO would be a 35mm gun firing the Oerlikon AHEAD 'shrapnel'
type airburst ammo, using electro-optical guidance.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition
website and discussion
forum

  #3  
Old May 31st 06, 08:37 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,sci.military.naval
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Defense against UAV's

wrote:
rb wrote:
Highly unlikely that it went undetected for 25 mins.
More likely it's Iranian sabre rattling again.


Regardless of the accuracy of this particular account, it is true that
UAVs pose a new problem for navies and armies, especially in the
smaller versions. Defensive systems are generally designed to detect
and destroy much bigger and more obvious targets, and even if they
manage to spot a small UAV, what would be used to shoot it down?

This is the subject of much debate at the moment. Ordinary homing
missiles may not be able to lock-on to a stealthy little UAV (and even
if they could, there's not much logic in using a very expensive missile
to shoot down a very cheap plane). A radar-directed gun system like
Phalanx might also not lock-on to such a target. The best bet at the
moment IMO would be a 35mm gun firing the Oerlikon AHEAD 'shrapnel'
type airburst ammo, using electro-optical guidance.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition
website and discussion
forum



The US navy in particular seems to have seen the writing on the wall for
some time now, hence (I would assume) part of the reason for their
interest in developing the 'Millenium' gun and expressed interest in the
naval 57mm cannon.
http://www.lockheedmartin.com/wms/fi...=400&jsi=false
http://www.navyleague.org/sea_power/dec_04_46.php

cheers
rb
  #4  
Old May 31st 06, 09:51 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,sci.military.naval
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Defense against UAV's


rb wrote:

The US navy in particular seems to have seen the writing on the wall for
some time now, hence (I would assume) part of the reason for their
interest in developing the 'Millenium' gun and expressed interest in the
naval 57mm cannon.
http://www.lockheedmartin.com/wms/fi...=400&jsi=false
http://www.navyleague.org/sea_power/dec_04_46.php


The 35mm Millennium gun would qualify - that's designed to fire the
AHEAD ammo I mentioned - but I'm not so sure about the Bofors 57mm. In
the AA mode that uses radar aiming and proximity fuzes, and I'm not
sure if either would be sensitive enough to respond to a small stealthy
UAV.

Tony Williams
Military gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk

  #7  
Old May 31st 06, 12:32 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,sci.military.naval
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Defense against UAV's


wrote:
According to:

http://en.rian.ru/onlinenews/20060530/48833304.html

An Iranian UAV was able to circle a U.S. aircraft carrier undetected
for 25 minutes.

With U.S. forces making increasing use of UAV's, the inevitable
question becomes:

How can we protect our forces against UAV's when other countries or
terrorist
organizations start using them against us?


Did you notice this is a Russian news agency reporting on what an
Iranian spokesman said?

  #8  
Old May 31st 06, 12:51 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,sci.military.naval
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Defense against UAV's

wrote in message
ups.com...

rb wrote:

Highly unlikely that it went undetected for 25 mins.
More likely it's Iranian sabre rattling again.


Regardless of the accuracy of this particular account, it is true that
UAVs pose a new problem for navies and armies, especially in the
smaller versions.


Smaller versions typically have no or little combat capability. Great
survellaince platforms etc but not big enough for any serious work. Make it
big enough to do offensive stuff and it's just as detectable as any other
aircraft.

Defensive systems are generally designed to detect
and destroy much bigger and more obvious targets, and even if they
manage to spot a small UAV, what would be used to shoot it down?


The current crop of UAVs are still heavily dependant on comms and few have
any serious autonomous combat capability. Hence, jamming is the most likely
defense. Jam the comms the UAV goes into autonomous mode. Now you hava a
relatively dumb target to attack.

This is the subject of much debate at the moment. Ordinary homing
missiles may not be able to lock-on to a stealthy little UAV (and even
if they could, there's not much logic in using a very expensive missile
to shoot down a very cheap plane).


The smaller UAVs have limited offensive weapons, if any. Those UAVs that do
are much larger, not overly cheaper than a manned fighter/bomber, and just
as easy to detect (particularly if you can detect all the comms traffic).

A radar-directed gun system like
Phalanx might also not lock-on to such a target.


The idea is to take them out long before your last line of defense.

The best bet at the
moment IMO would be a 35mm gun firing the Oerlikon AHEAD 'shrapnel'
type airburst ammo, using electro-optical guidance.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition
website and discussion
forum



  #9  
Old May 31st 06, 01:51 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,sci.military.naval
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Defense against UAV's


The Raven wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...


Regardless of the accuracy of this particular account, it is true that
UAVs pose a new problem for navies and armies, especially in the
smaller versions.


Smaller versions typically have no or little combat capability. Great
survellaince platforms etc but not big enough for any serious work. Make it
big enough to do offensive stuff and it's just as detectable as any other
aircraft.

There are useful offensive things that even small aircraft can do -
like damaging radars. A small uav capable of delivering (slowly) 200kg
of payload is much less detectable then your normal fighter. Although
it might be easier to detect/respond to then an antiship missile, it
might also be orders of magnitude cheaper - and therefore employed in
swarm attacks.

Defensive systems are generally designed to detect
and destroy much bigger and more obvious targets, and even if they
manage to spot a small UAV, what would be used to shoot it down?


The current crop of UAVs are still heavily dependant on comms and few have
any serious autonomous combat capability.

How long is that going to last? The rest of the world is not dumb, and
India/China have enough good & cheap programmers and scientists...

Hence, jamming is the most likely defense. Jam the comms the UAV goes into
autonomous mode. Now you hava a relatively dumb target to attack.

Relatively dumb might still be too smart. Especially if it is in
daylight and in good weather - sea is mostly empty and image
recognition is making a lot of progress.

This is the subject of much debate at the moment. Ordinary homing
missiles may not be able to lock-on to a stealthy little UAV (and even
if they could, there's not much logic in using a very expensive missile
to shoot down a very cheap plane).


The smaller UAVs have limited offensive weapons, if any. Those UAVs that do
are much larger, not overly cheaper than a manned fighter/bomber, and just
as easy to detect (particularly if you can detect all the comms traffic).

You think USA style super-duper all-weather fail proof UAVs.

A radar-directed gun system like
Phalanx might also not lock-on to such a target.


The idea is to take them out long before your last line of defense.

Taking them out early means missiles and/or aircraft. Both will have
problems locking on low signature slow flying targets. And both can be
overwhelmed/depleted by swarm attacks..

  #10  
Old May 31st 06, 01:57 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,sci.military.naval
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Defense against UAV's

I kept specifying "small, stealthy UAVs" - which by definition would
be used for recce, not attack - as these are the hardest targets to
detect and destroy. Now it may be that powerful navies will not be too
troubled by what they can do (you can't hide a ship too easily anyway,
so their enemy will know they are there) but armies certainly are
worried, because UAVs can be used to detect the movements of troops and
vehicles and identify targets for attack - even to lase them to guide
in homing munitions. And some of the recce UAVs being developed at the
moment are really small and quiet and will be very difficult to spot.

Even if SAMs could deal with these small UAVs, the problem would be
that the enemy could then just send over hordes of very cheap UAVs
(without the expensive sensor kit) to soak up the SAMs - a very
cost-effective way of degrading your enemy's capabilities. Unless and
until a small and cheap "anti-UAV" homing missile can be developed, I
think appropriate guns (and ammo) provide the best answer.

It is of course correct that a big, weapon-carrying UAV will be much
easier to detect than a small one (although a stealthy design may still
cause problems, just as stealth strike planes do). In contrast, fast
anti-ship missiles may be difficult to intercept but they have hot
engines and leading-edge surfaces which are easy to detect with IR
sensors: stealth and high speed do not go together very well.

Tony Williams
Military gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk

 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
GAO: Electronic Warfa Comprehensive Strategy Needed for Suppressing Enemy Mike Naval Aviation 0 December 27th 05 07:23 PM
CRS: V-22 Osprey Tilt-Rotor Aircraft Mike Naval Aviation 0 October 14th 05 08:14 PM
Air defense (naval and air force) Mike Military Aviation 0 September 18th 04 04:42 PM
Naval air defense Mike Naval Aviation 0 September 18th 04 04:42 PM
Showstoppers (long, but interesting questions raised) Anonymous Spamless Military Aviation 0 April 21st 04 05:09 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:30 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.