beware of "warranty" R&R labor costs

Hi all,

I recently had a $1700 SigmaTek bootstrap gyro installed in our airplane
and figured I'd relate this story.

This gyro exhibited excessive precession since the day it was
installed....in other words, it was defective. I called my avionics
tech and asked him to order a new gyro. No problem. 5 weeks later it
shows up and is installed (they build these things to order because, as
we all know, gyros that sit on the shelf risk bearing problems and
premature failure).

Then I get the bill. What's this? 1.0 hour labor ($75) to R&R the
gyro? I talk to my avionics tech and he says that while SigmaTek covers
the DG itself under warranty, they don't cover R&R labor. WTF? I think
to myself it's one thing if it failed in service at some point, but this
was broken from day 1. Even though SigmaTek tagged this equipment, it's
pretty clear it didn't go through sufficient "burn in" and general QC to
be put in an airplane.

So, I called SigmaTek today and they basically told me "tough...that's
our policy and we're not changing it". They even tried to pat
themselves on the back and say that they went over and beyond the call
by doing a swap with a new unit when refurbishing the original is
"strict policy". When I point out that I paid for a NEW gyro, so I
would naturally expect nothing less than a NEW gyro, they are still not
convinced that this is merely adequate post-sale support.

Since my issue was never with the Avionics shop, I paid their invoice,
but SigmaTek is now on my $hit list. While I positively LOVE their
gyros, I HATE their post-sale support.

Apparently (my avionics tech tells me) this is a common gripe with many
avionics/systems vendors. He said that he had many customer complaints
regarding the JPI engine analyzers, for example, and R&R labor was
getting out of hand, so now in his quotes for those systems he
explicitly states that R&R labor is not covered. I recommended he make
that boilerplate in all quotes so people are not surprised to learn that
they might have to pay for a manufacturer's mistake.

So, I suppose the moral of the story is Caveat Emptor. If you're
getting something installed, be sure to ask about who is responsible for
what if the unit/equipment needs to be taken out of the airplane for
so-called "warranty" service. A gyro is pretty simple to remove, but a
some other system intertwined with the aircraft's innards? Could amount
to BIG bucks.

Safe flying,

-Doug

--
--------------------
Doug Vetter, CFIMEIA

http://www.dvcfi.com
--------------------

Well, I'd be a bit ****ed at the shop if you ordered it through them.
They made the markup money along with the installation costs. Part of
doing business is building in a bit of warranty work. THEIR bitch
should be with Sigma Tek and they should be reimbursed by the
manufacturer, not you. You can't be in business and expect win-win.
It doesn't happen that way.

Customer service of this type should never be tolerated. Instead of
telling us about it, (and we're always on the lookout for the infamous
"Aviation Scumbag") your energies should be directed toward a consumer
group in your area. If you lie down and take it, they'll do it again
and again. And although it's nice to know, there's no other game in
town.

Personally I'm going back and forth on an autopilot decision. I have
an older Century that is in perfect shape, but some people are under
the impression that the new owner of the manufacturing company must be
paid a royalty if I were to use it. I refuse to be the victim of
extortion and am determined to have it put into the aircraft, even if
I do it myself and claim it's always been there. The unit was bought
and paid for back in 1975. OTOH, for about double the cash outlay I
can buy a new STec whose customer service is about the same as the
described in the original post.




On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 01:30:06 GMT, Doug Vetter
wrote:

Hi all,

I recently had a $1700 SigmaTek bootstrap gyro installed in our airplane
and figured I'd relate this story.

This gyro exhibited excessive precession since the day it was
installed....in other words, it was defective. I called my avionics
tech and asked him to order a new gyro. No problem. 5 weeks later it
shows up and is installed (they build these things to order because, as
we all know, gyros that sit on the shelf risk bearing problems and
premature failure).

Then I get the bill. What's this? 1.0 hour labor ($75) to R&R the
gyro? I talk to my avionics tech and he says that while SigmaTek covers
the DG itself under warranty, they don't cover R&R labor. WTF? I think
to myself it's one thing if it failed in service at some point, but this
was broken from day 1. Even though SigmaTek tagged this equipment, it's
pretty clear it didn't go through sufficient "burn in" and general QC to
be put in an airplane.

So, I called SigmaTek today and they basically told me "tough...that's
our policy and we're not changing it". They even tried to pat
themselves on the back and say that they went over and beyond the call
by doing a swap with a new unit when refurbishing the original is
"strict policy". When I point out that I paid for a NEW gyro, so I
would naturally expect nothing less than a NEW gyro, they are still not
convinced that this is merely adequate post-sale support.

Since my issue was never with the Avionics shop, I paid their invoice,
but SigmaTek is now on my $hit list. While I positively LOVE their
gyros, I HATE their post-sale support.

Apparently (my avionics tech tells me) this is a common gripe with many
avionics/systems vendors. He said that he had many customer complaints
regarding the JPI engine analyzers, for example, and R&R labor was
getting out of hand, so now in his quotes for those systems he
explicitly states that R&R labor is not covered. I recommended he make
that boilerplate in all quotes so people are not surprised to learn that
they might have to pay for a manufacturer's mistake.

So, I suppose the moral of the story is Caveat Emptor. If you're
getting something installed, be sure to ask about who is responsible for
what if the unit/equipment needs to be taken out of the airplane for
so-called "warranty" service. A gyro is pretty simple to remove, but a
some other system intertwined with the aircraft's innards? Could amount
to BIG bucks.

Safe flying,

-Doug

Certainly, if you bought the gyro retail from the same shop that installed
it, the shop should replace a defective unit free of charge, including labor
to R&R, and they should do all of the dealing with the manufacturer for
warranty adjustment. If you simply hired the shop to do an install of a
unit you bought directly from the manufacturer, or elsewhere, it would be
quite reasonable for the manufacturer to refuse to pay for R&R of a
defective unit.

-Elliott Drucker

"Roger Tracy" wrote
So let me get this straight. If I own a Century autopilot (which I do) then
I have to pay some AH a royalty to use it? I think not.

Well, that depends on how you plan to use it.

If the autopilot is already installed and has paperwork, then no.

If you are planning to install it, then maybe. Specifically, it
depends on HOW you are going to install it.

Autopilot installation is considered a major alteration by every FSDO
out there. That means you need a 337, and you need to do it based on
acceptable data. Basically, you have three ways to make that data
happen.

If the autopilot was optional equipment for that make and model
airplane, then the airplane manufacturer will have approved drawings
for the installation. All you need to do is get a copy of the
drawings, follow them, and refer to them (Installed Autopilot123 in
accordance with AirplaneManufacturer drawing #123-456-789). You don't
have to pay a royalty, and pretty much any FSDO will accept that as
valid.

You could in theory get a field approval. Also no royalty. In
practice, field approvals are not being granted for autopilot
installations, period. Unless you've got something on someone at the
FSDO, they will tell you to get an STC or go home.

That brings us to the STC - the most popular way to install an
autopilot. The autopilot manufacturer is going to own the STC. These
guys have been pushing FSDO's to verify that you have permission to
use the STC. You want permission - you pay a royalty. Or you can
keep the autopilot on the shelf. Your call.

Basically, here is what's happening. There are effectively no new
airplanes being built. In order to make money, the autopilot
manufacturers have to sell new autopilots into old airplanes. That
means they need the old autopilots to go away. That's why they're
throwing up every possible roadblock to the installation of old
autopilots, and when that's not possible trying to make extra money
off them.

Michael

If you were the original purchaser not if you use it. But if you
wanted to install it in another plane, you would! That is unless you
have an IA that doesn't think he's a lawyer.

On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 11:11:21 -0500, "Roger Tracy"
wrote:

So let me get this straight. If I own a Century autopilot (which I do) then
I have to pay some AH a royalty to use it? I think not.



"Justin Case" wrote in message
news
Well, I'd be a bit ****ed at the shop if you ordered it through them.
They made the markup money along with the installation costs. Part of
doing business is building in a bit of warranty work. THEIR bitch
should be with Sigma Tek and they should be reimbursed by the
manufacturer, not you. You can't be in business and expect win-win.
It doesn't happen that way.

Customer service of this type should never be tolerated. Instead of
telling us about it, (and we're always on the lookout for the infamous
"Aviation Scumbag") your energies should be directed toward a consumer
group in your area. If you lie down and take it, they'll do it again
and again. And although it's nice to know, there's no other game in
town.

Personally I'm going back and forth on an autopilot decision. I have
an older Century that is in perfect shape, but some people are under
the impression that the new owner of the manufacturing company must be
paid a royalty if I were to use it. I refuse to be the victim of
extortion and am determined to have it put into the aircraft, even if
I do it myself and claim it's always been there. The unit was bought
and paid for back in 1975. OTOH, for about double the cash outlay I
can buy a new STec whose customer service is about the same as the
described in the original post.




On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 01:30:06 GMT, Doug Vetter
wrote:

Hi all,

I recently had a $1700 SigmaTek bootstrap gyro installed in our airplane
and figured I'd relate this story.

This gyro exhibited excessive precession since the day it was
installed....in other words, it was defective. I called my avionics
tech and asked him to order a new gyro. No problem. 5 weeks later it
shows up and is installed (they build these things to order because, as
we all know, gyros that sit on the shelf risk bearing problems and
premature failure).

Then I get the bill. What's this? 1.0 hour labor ($75) to R&R the
gyro? I talk to my avionics tech and he says that while SigmaTek covers
the DG itself under warranty, they don't cover R&R labor. WTF? I think
to myself it's one thing if it failed in service at some point, but this
was broken from day 1. Even though SigmaTek tagged this equipment, it's
pretty clear it didn't go through sufficient "burn in" and general QC to
be put in an airplane.

So, I called SigmaTek today and they basically told me "tough...that's
our policy and we're not changing it". They even tried to pat
themselves on the back and say that they went over and beyond the call
by doing a swap with a new unit when refurbishing the original is
"strict policy". When I point out that I paid for a NEW gyro, so I
would naturally expect nothing less than a NEW gyro, they are still not
convinced that this is merely adequate post-sale support.

Since my issue was never with the Avionics shop, I paid their invoice,
but SigmaTek is now on my $hit list. While I positively LOVE their
gyros, I HATE their post-sale support.

Apparently (my avionics tech tells me) this is a common gripe with many
avionics/systems vendors. He said that he had many customer complaints
regarding the JPI engine analyzers, for example, and R&R labor was
getting out of hand, so now in his quotes for those systems he
explicitly states that R&R labor is not covered. I recommended he make
that boilerplate in all quotes so people are not surprised to learn that
they might have to pay for a manufacturer's mistake.

So, I suppose the moral of the story is Caveat Emptor. If you're
getting something installed, be sure to ask about who is responsible for
what if the unit/equipment needs to be taken out of the airplane for
so-called "warranty" service. A gyro is pretty simple to remove, but a
some other system intertwined with the aircraft's innards? Could amount
to BIG bucks.

Safe flying,

-Doug

Good explanation, but unless I see it in writing where the
manufacturer has the authority to do this, I consider it a rumor. And
if the FSDO's (I don't care how many) are bowing to this, and it's not
in writing, they're violating the law. Can ANYONE cite the statute?

On 20 Aug 2003 15:19:12 -0700, (Michael) wrote:

"Roger Tracy" wrote
So let me get this straight. If I own a Century autopilot (which I do) then
I have to pay some AH a royalty to use it? I think not.

Well, that depends on how you plan to use it.

If the autopilot is already installed and has paperwork, then no.

If you are planning to install it, then maybe. Specifically, it
depends on HOW you are going to install it.

Autopilot installation is considered a major alteration by every FSDO
out there. That means you need a 337, and you need to do it based on
acceptable data. Basically, you have three ways to make that data
happen.

If the autopilot was optional equipment for that make and model
airplane, then the airplane manufacturer will have approved drawings
for the installation. All you need to do is get a copy of the
drawings, follow them, and refer to them (Installed Autopilot123 in
accordance with AirplaneManufacturer drawing #123-456-789). You don't
have to pay a royalty, and pretty much any FSDO will accept that as
valid.

You could in theory get a field approval. Also no royalty. In
practice, field approvals are not being granted for autopilot
installations, period. Unless you've got something on someone at the
FSDO, they will tell you to get an STC or go home.

That brings us to the STC - the most popular way to install an
autopilot. The autopilot manufacturer is going to own the STC. These
guys have been pushing FSDO's to verify that you have permission to
use the STC. You want permission - you pay a royalty. Or you can
keep the autopilot on the shelf. Your call.

Basically, here is what's happening. There are effectively no new
airplanes being built. In order to make money, the autopilot
manufacturers have to sell new autopilots into old airplanes. That
means they need the old autopilots to go away. That's why they're
throwing up every possible roadblock to the installation of old
autopilots, and when that's not possible trying to make extra money
off them.

Michael

"Michael" wrote in message om...

If the autopilot was optional equipment for that make and model
airplane, then the airplane manufacturer will have approved drawings
for the installation. All you need to do is get a copy of the
drawings, follow them, and refer to them (Installed Autopilot123 in
accordance with AirplaneManufacturer drawing #123-456-789). You don't
have to pay a royalty, and pretty much any FSDO will accept that as
valid.

If it was approved on the type certificate, you don't even need a 337. Changes
in accordance with the aircraft specifications as certificated are not major
atlerations as far as far as part 43 is concerned.

"Justin Case" wrote in message ...
Good explanation, but unless I see it in writing where the
manufacturer has the authority to do this, I consider it a rumor. And
if the FSDO's (I don't care how many) are bowing to this, and it's not
in writing, they're violating the law. Can ANYONE cite the statute?

43.5 says that you have to execute a 337 in a matter prescribed by
the administrator. Since Marion doesn't have time to deal with these
issues personally, she delegates it to the FSDOs. Believe me, unless
you got the STC paperwork with your serial number on it, it ain't acceptable
to the administrator. The only way to legitimately get the paperwork is
to get it from the certificate holder and if they want to charge for it,
there isn't anything you're going to do.

In article , Doug Vetter
writes:

Then I get the bill. What's this? 1.0 hour labor ($75) to R&R the
gyro? I talk to my avionics tech and he says that while SigmaTek covers
the DG itself under warranty, they don't cover R&R labor.

When my GNS 430 failed I was in Tucson, AZ. Unit was installed in Ohio, 6 mo
previous. The repair shop got a new one from Garmin, installed it, and
returned the defective, all at no cost to me. I assume Garmin covered it.

Chuck

Show me! Show me! Show me! Don't quote numbers that appear to make
up your argument. Although your "43.5" may or may not say that, how
do you know your interpretation is correct. Now where does it say
that the "administrator" has the right to disregard other laws when
not in time of emergency. Show me the numbers so that I can see it
for myself. Help me out here, otherwise I'll think you're saying the
"administrator" may decide that there's too much air in everyone's
tires.


On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 11:07:45 -0400, "Ron Natalie"
wrote:


"Justin Case" wrote in message ...
Good explanation, but unless I see it in writing where the
manufacturer has the authority to do this, I consider it a rumor. And
if the FSDO's (I don't care how many) are bowing to this, and it's not
in writing, they're violating the law. Can ANYONE cite the statute?

43.5 says that you have to execute a 337 in a matter prescribed by
the administrator. Since Marion doesn't have time to deal with these
issues personally, she delegates it to the FSDOs. Believe me, unless
you got the STC paperwork with your serial number on it, it ain't acceptable
to the administrator. The only way to legitimately get the paperwork is
to get it from the certificate holder and if they want to charge for it,
there isn't anything you're going to do.