Time to revamp traffic patterns at non-towered airports?

However, the SEL will have a great deal of difficulty seeing the
MEL that is overtaking him. Likewise, the ultralights will have
difficulty seeing any SEL or MEL that are overtaking them. Is this
system really the best way to minimize the risk in the traffic
pattern?


I don't think I'd be so concerned with a guy behind me... unless we both
have an operating radio and make proper calls, I would not even know he is
behind me.

If I'm in a J-3 or a Champ or a Piper 140 or 180 or a C-210, and I think
that "larger SEL or MEL" aircraft is going to crawl up my butt, I think a
simple radio call asking if he can see me in front of him would suffice.

If I'm in my J-3, NORDO, and I know I did not cut off a 5 mile straight in
aircraft, could not see him and tell he was in the pattern. Then, he needs
to be looking out the window.

No, I am not standing on the, "I'm in front I own the runway" mentality, I'm
just stating the way it is. I have not flown many aircraft where I can crank
my head around to check 6 on final approach for that big bear that's gonna
roll over me.

BT

BTIZ wrote:

No, I am not standing on the, "I'm in front I own the runway" mentality, I'm
just stating the way it is. I have not flown many aircraft where I can crank
my head around to check 6 on final approach for that big bear that's gonna
roll over me.

Right with you. I do a final in my Maule at or below 65 mph, touching down about
45. I don't usually have a problem with the fast traffic, 'cause they know what
they're doing, but I do get the occasional solo student in a Cherokee who wants
to climb right up my back on final. I haven't found the STC for a rear-view mirror
yet.

Of course, the fact that I have flaps gives me a bit more ability to do a faster
final than a J-3 has.

George Patterson
Love, n.: A form of temporary insanity afflicting the young. It is curable
either by marriage or by removal of the afflicted from the circumstances
under which he incurred the condition. It is sometimes fatal, but more
often to the physician than to the patient.

From: (Ace Pilot)

So, Mac, you're saying that there's no better way to conduct
operations at non-towered airports? Rather closed minded of you. And
I'll bet you haven't even examined any alternatives, have you?

Maybe we could "take a number" and wait to be called? We have / use an
alternative pattern at K46--"We" came up with the idea. The airport authority
bought it. We fly it. It still boils down to "don't get hit" and "don't hit
anyone else" And if I was not open minded I'd not be a glider pilot as well as
ASEL tailwheel and all that---oh have you ever flown a TriPacer off the same
runway with B-58 Hustler bombers? I have. Slight speed difference there ole
chap. have fun Mac

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message ...
"Ace Pilot" wrote in message om...

But there are airports that don't have this luxury and all aircraft
have to share the same runway. Putting the ultralights on the "inside
and lower" from the regular (SEL) traffic pattern, which may be
"inside and lower" the MEL puts the burden for see and avoid on the
faster aircraft.

Back when our airport had a fairly active ultralight activity. They flew the
opposite pattern, obviously lower and tighter than the regular pattern. It
was quite easy as a result for them to adjust on base leg to fit into the
higher performance traffic.

This sounds interesting. If I understand you correctly, everyone used
the same runway, but higher performance aircraft flew a left-hand
pattern while ultralights flew a right-hand pattern (or vice versa).
This is contrary to what AC 90-66A suggests, i.e., different size and
altitude patterns on the same side of the runway. Was there something
that prevented the airport from following the 90-66A recommendation,
or was this procedure deemed safer than what 90-66A recommended?

I can see some of the advantages. While on downwind and base, traffic
with significantly different speeds is more likely forward of you,
enabling everyone to better see and avoid the traffic that is of most
concern.

Having different sized patterns on opposite sides of the runway means
that traffic that overshoots final isn't flying head on into the other
pattern's base leg traffic.

Were there any disadvantages with this procedure? How was knowledge of
this procedure disseminated? Thanks for the input, Ron.

Ace Pilot wrote:

Were there any disadvantages with this procedure? How was knowledge of
this procedure disseminated? Thanks for the input, Ron.

One disadvantage is the fact that aircraft on the base leg of a reverse-direction
pattern can't be seen by high-wing aircraft waiting at the runway. Couple that with
a circling approach from 300' AGL, and you've got real problems. I was almost
nailed on my solo flight by some A**hole doing this in a Breezy. Fortunately, a
CFI flying the usual pattern with a student heard me announce departure and got
on the radio. I was halfway out on the runway before I got stopped, though. His
wheels were below the level of my instrument panel when he went by.

George Patterson
Love, n.: A form of temporary insanity afflicting the young. It is curable
either by marriage or by removal of the afflicted from the circumstances
under which he incurred the condition. It is sometimes fatal, but more
often to the physician than to the patient.

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message
...
One disadvantage is the fact that aircraft on the base leg of a
reverse-direction
pattern can't be seen by high-wing aircraft waiting at the runway.

Huh? Left or right patterns are not chosen for the convenience of those
waiting at the runway. At most airports, the pattern is all left turns or
all right turns, and there is only one taxiway to the runway. There is
almost always the potential for a high-wing airplane to not be able to see
traffic on base leg without turning the airplane prior to entering the
runway. This has nothing to do with having a "reverse-direction pattern".

You can NEVER count on there not being an aircraft on base leg behind you as
you enter the runway. That's why I ALWAYS turn the airplane so that I can
see the base leg behind me, whichever base leg that is and whether or not
it's part of the usual pattern, before I enter the runway.

[...] I was halfway out on the runway before I got stopped, though. His
wheels were below the level of my instrument panel when he went by.

Sounds to me like you both screwed up. Before wandering onto the runway,
you should've positioned your airplane so you could see traffic approaching
the runway, and he should have gone around when you violated his
right-of-way as landing traffic.

Pete

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message ...

One disadvantage is the fact that aircraft on the base leg of a reverse-direction
pattern can't be seen by high-wing aircraft waiting at the runway

Not at our field. The aircraft at the hold line actually has his back
to his OWN base leg. He's looking at the ultralight base leg.
You've got to turn towards final before you leave anyhow
(or in the Navion slide the canopy back so you can see 360 degrees).

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message ...
Sounds to me like you both screwed up. Before wandering onto the runway,
you should've positioned your airplane so you could see traffic approaching
the runway, and he should have gone around when you violated his
right-of-way as landing traffic.

I'm also not sure why traffic on base is an issue. How long does it take to
depart? Around here there are typically people on final when you pull out.
If you don't you'll never get off the ground on a busy day.

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
. ..
I'm also not sure why traffic on base is an issue. How long does it
take to
depart? Around here there are typically people on final when you pull
out.
If you don't you'll never get off the ground on a busy day.

Maybe it's those fast slow ultralights?

Seriously though, I have to assume it's a combination of a significantly
smaller pattern flown (where final is very short) and the base leg
visibility he's complaining about. The complaint still doesn't make sense,
but at least I can hypothesize a pattern flown where traffic on base is
still relatively close to landing.

Who knows? Bottom line though is that one should not taxi onto the runway
until one has made sure one is not pulling out in front of traffic, no
matter where that traffic may be.

Pete

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message
...


Ace Pilot wrote:

Were there any disadvantages with this procedure? How was knowledge of
this procedure disseminated? Thanks for the input, Ron.

One disadvantage is the fact that aircraft on the base leg of a
reverse-direction
pattern can't be seen by high-wing aircraft waiting at the runway.

I don't understand. I fly a high wing and have never had a problem seeing
base leg traffic no matter the runway/taxiway configuration or traffic
direction. The old 360 before taking the runway allows one to see all
traffic no matter where it is coming from.

Couple that with
a circling approach from 300' AGL, and you've got real problems. I was
almost
nailed on my solo flight by some A**hole doing this in a Breezy.
Fortunately, a
CFI flying the usual pattern with a student heard me announce departure
and got
on the radio. I was halfway out on the runway before I got stopped,
though. His
wheels were below the level of my instrument panel when he went by.

George Patterson
Love, n.: A form of temporary insanity afflicting the young. It is
curable
either by marriage or by removal of the afflicted from the
circumstances
under which he incurred the condition. It is sometimes fatal, but
more
often to the physician than to the patient.