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#161
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Short Wings Gliders SW HIGH FUN LOW STRESS CLASS
At 17:03 02 February 2009, Andreas Maurer wrote:
Well... as there are practiucally no World Class gliders flying in Europe (read: World Class is being ignored by 80 percent of the world's gliding pilots), you'd better name it "US class"... or "dwarf class"... Can't say that it's overwhelmingly popular in the US, either. The World Class US Nationals have been running concurrently with the 1-26 Championships, and it seems like there are 4 to 5 times as many 1-26s as there are PW-5s. Jim Beckman |
#162
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Short Wings Gliders (25)
Bob Kuykendall wrote:
On Feb 2, 2:14*am, (Michel Talon) wrote: ...The glider factories seem to think that glider buyers are like Ferrari buyers, who will accept to pay any price for their toys... Michel, I think that you have hit the nail on the head. The glider makers are acting just as you say. And the reason they are doing so seems to be that they are correct in their assessment; that there continues to be folks who will pay top dollar for high-performance sailplanes. What I don't understand is why you seem to take issue with it. Do you think that it is unjust or unfair for them to want to make a profit? I agree with all you said, but i don't think this model is sustainable. By the way, how many glider factories went bust? Similarly how many of these car builders who wanted to produce luxury sports cars are alive? Bugatti does airplane parts nowadays, similarly Hispano-Suiza, etc. Gliding is still living because there has been tens of thousands of people learning to fly in Germany, Brittany, France, etc. for *small cost*, thanks to the dedication of instructors doing that for free, over all those years. You have only to consider what Andreas Maurer says to see what small cost means, in the example of his club in Landau. -- Michel TALON |
#163
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Short Wings Gliders (26) 146
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#164
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Short Wings Gliders SW HIGH FUN LOW STRESS CLASS
At 22:45 02 February 2009, Jim Beckman wrote:
At 17:03 02 February 2009, Andreas Maurer wrote: Well... as there are practically no World Class gliders flying in Europe (read: World Class is being ignored by 80 percent of the world's gliding pilots), you'd better name it "US class"... or dwarf class"... Short Wings Gliders might account for 5 pct of world fleet if 20 percent of the world's gliding pilots are interested it will be a great success!!!!! Can't say that it's overwhelmingly popular in the US, either. The World Class US Nationals have been running concurrently with the 1-26 Championships, and it seems like there are 4 to 5 times as many 1-26s as there are PW-5s. it makes sense.......... 1-26 700 built for usa only PW-5 200 built for the world unless Arnold's friend comes around and pull out another Judas trick like he did here in the last supper: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VnTO...eature=related and you get bread, fish and PW-5 multiplied .................. |
#165
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Short Wings Gliders (25)
On Feb 2, 5:14*am, (Michel Talon) wrote:
... But i remark that the cost of gliders has indeed increased exponentially the last twenty years, for reasons which have nothing to do with concrete factors, but everything to do with hourly cost of workers, and total lack of will of controlling the costs. The glider factories seem to think that glider buyers are like Ferrari buyers, who will accept to pay any price for their toys. Nope. Why do you think some mfgs are still using lower-cost (and lower quality) bearings ? Not using stainless cables ? I have been told, when I specifically asked, that cost control was the reason. The factories constantly look for ways to reduce costs. A primary cost driver is the FAI class definition, which sets the market. And when there are too many classes, it just runs up the per-unit costs. And no, it doesn't get hugely cheaper when you cut the span... My two cents anyway, Best Regards, Dave "YO electric" |
#166
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Short Wings Gliders (26) 146
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#167
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Short Wings Gliders (26) 146
At 01:00 03 February 2009, Dan Silent wrote:
possible names for the new class: "US class" "NON EUROPE class" "20PCT class" "DWARF class" "WC class" "TINS4WS class" OTHER SUGGESTIONS??? Volksclasse ? |
#168
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Short Wings Gliders (25)
On Feb 2, 3:27*pm, (Michel Talon) wrote:
I agree with all you said, but i don't think this model is sustainable. Michel, I do agree with you in that as well; in the greater scheme of things the way sailplane manufacturers have operated cannot continue indefinitely. However, I don't think that how they are operating is damaging to the sport of soaring or to the worldwide community of soaring pilots, so I do think it is my place to tell them how to run their businesses. I can, of course, think of ways that they could do more to benfit the sport and its enthusiasts, but only at the cost of damage to their profitability. But again, it is their business, not mine. Getting back to your point, there is one thing that the 19th century robber barons got right when they used social darwinism to justify their avarice and greed: natural selection in the business environment will force businesses to adapt or to evolve, and those that do neither can be counted upon to wither and die. So I think that if their current business model is not sustainable, then the manufacturers will develop one that is, or will leave the business altogether. Gliding is still living because there has been tens of thousands of people learning to fly in Germany, Brittany, France, etc. for *small cost*, thanks to the dedication of instructors doing that for free, over all those years... If only we could get those tens of thousands of people to spend a few days each building gliders. If, for example, 10000 people spent three workdays (24 hours) building gliders, that'd be enough labor to produce 120 training gliders or about 180 single-seaters. Of course, you can't do that with a glider factory, the logistics of transporting and accommodating that many temporary workers at a single facility would be a nightmare. But if you look closely at the world of homebuilt aircraft that is very nearly what you see, with thousands of distributed "manufacturing centers" in tiny workshops all across the world. Of course, instead of thousands of people spending a few hours each what we have is hundreds of people spending a thousand hours each, but I think it can work the other way as well. Thanks again, Bob K. |
#169
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Short Wings Gliders (25)
Earlier, I wrote:
...However, I don't think that how they are operating is damaging to the sport of soaring or to the worldwide community of soaring pilots, so I do think it is my place to tell them how to run their businesses.... What I meant to write was: ...However, I don't think that how they are operating is damaging to the sport of soaring or to the worldwide community of soaring pilots, so I do **not** think it is my place to tell them how to run their businesses.... Sorry for the confusion. Thanks, Bob K. |
#170
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Short Wings Gliders (25)
This comes from EAA, IIRC. In the US, about 5% of the homebuilt aircraft
started up ever get finished. Of those that do, many pass through three owner/builders during the course of the completion, and the process usually takes about eight years. Of course, gliders are much simpler to build. Bill Piper was famous for saying, and I paraphrase, "It costs as much to build a bad design as a good one. Tell me the weight of an airplane and I can tell you how much it costs to build it." This formula would probably be true for any [X]RP structure in any particular location and with any particular construction method. At 01:31 03 February 2009, Bob Kuykendall wrote: On Feb 2, 3:27=A0pm, (Michel Talon) wrote: I agree with all you said, but i don't think this model is sustainable. Michel, I do agree with you in that as well; in the greater scheme of things the way sailplane manufacturers have operated cannot continue indefinitely. However, I don't think that how they are operating is damaging to the sport of soaring or to the worldwide community of soaring pilots, so I do think it is my place to tell them how to run their businesses. I can, of course, think of ways that they could do more to benfit the sport and its enthusiasts, but only at the cost of damage to their profitability. But again, it is their business, not mine. Getting back to your point, there is one thing that the 19th century robber barons got right when they used social darwinism to justify their avarice and greed: natural selection in the business environment will force businesses to adapt or to evolve, and those that do neither can be counted upon to wither and die. So I think that if their current business model is not sustainable, then the manufacturers will develop one that is, or will leave the business altogether. Gliding is still living because there has been tens of thousands of people learning to fly in Germany, Brittany, France, etc. for *small cost*, thanks to the dedication of instructors doing that for free, over all those years... If only we could get those tens of thousands of people to spend a few days each building gliders. If, for example, 10000 people spent three workdays (24 hours) building gliders, that'd be enough labor to produce 120 training gliders or about 180 single-seaters. Of course, you can't do that with a glider factory, the logistics of transporting and accommodating that many temporary workers at a single facility would be a nightmare. But if you look closely at the world of homebuilt aircraft that is very nearly what you see, with thousands of distributed "manufacturing centers" in tiny workshops all across the world. Of course, instead of thousands of people spending a few hours each what we have is hundreds of people spending a thousand hours each, but I think it can work the other way as well. Thanks again, Bob K. |
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