23 July OSH accident audio

How? What changes in your evaluation from "hold there" to "hold there
because of an accident"?

Each pilot will make their own determination. What changes in =my= view
is that after an accident, there would likely be cleanup and
investigation, and the runway may be closed for a long time. I would
probably choose to divert if a circuit or two doesn't clear it up.
Other reasons for holds are more ephemeral.

It is true, I could make the wrong decision, but it would be =my=
decision. I value that.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

What's "free mind capacity"?
I'm not a native speaker. You know what I mean if you want to.
Not true. I have no idea what you meant, but I do want to know.

The way I read it, "Free" means "available". "Mind capacity" means
"ability to think". We sometimes refer to it as "processor cycles", by
anaolgy to computing. When one is thinking too much, there is not much
mind capacity left for other tasks, so there is not much "free" mind
capactity, although one's total mind capacity ("intellegence") is unaltered.

The other way to parse it, "free mind" "capacity" (ability to be
freethinking) doesn't fit well, so I went with the first one.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Thomas Borchert" wrote

Ah, ok. So I must be below average intelligence, because I have seen/read
about
vastly differing times needed for clearing of runways after accidents and
would
have NO idea at all what timeframe I could figure for an event like that
without a vast amount of further details beyond "there's been an
accident".
Good for you that you are so much smarter, I guess.

If it were stated that there was a "fatal incident" on the runway, that
would tell everyone that there would be a sizable delay. There is always
extra time taken to investigate, take proper care and respect to remove the
occupants, and remove the aircraft.

If I were put into a hold with that many aircraft, and knew it was not just
a backup due to too many aircraft trying to get in to land all at once, I
would have definitely made the decision to go find somewhere to land, and
come back later.
--
Jim in NC

Steven,

"Hold there because of an accident" provides an idea of how long the delay
will be


How long will it be? I seriously want to know.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

"Thomas Borchert" wrote in message
...

Steven,

"Hold there because of an accident" provides an idea of how long the
delay
will be


How long will it be? I seriously want to know.


One hour minimum.

If it were stated that there was a "fatal incident" on the runway, that
would tell everyone that there would be a sizable delay. There is always
extra time taken to investigate, take proper care and respect to remove the
occupants, and remove the aircraft.

If I were put into a hold with that many aircraft, and knew it was not just
a backup due to too many aircraft trying to get in to land all at once, I
would have definitely made the decision to go find somewhere to land, and
come back later.

I agree.
Having been in that hold over Green Lake, I think (and this is just my
opinion) that this one tidbit of information would have shut up all the
jibber-jabber on the frequency. It had gotten out of hand, and while I
respect the idea that ATC/FAA/EAA might not have wanted to brodcast the
fact that there was a fatal accident, there were still literally
hundreds of airplanes in the air on that Sunday, and people would have
piped down and shut up and made proper decisions about what to do next
if they knew the full scope of what was going on. Call it situational
awareness, but things were teetering on the brink of break down.
Broadcasting what had happened would have helped the guys at FISK get
it back under control, which they were in danger of losing.

People had a bad case of "get-THERE-itis" and wanted to get in. Knowing
what had happened would have helped to calm things down.

Arguing about how long it might take to clear up various types of
accidents is a waste of time. Each situation is a little different. I
remember one (non-fatal, except to the avionics involved) where a
baggage door on a twin opened up while the aircraft rotated on 27 at
OSH. The boxes of avionics then went thru the prop and got shredded
into a million small pieces. It took us probably an hour or two at
least to do the FOD walk and clear the runway.

Ryan Wubben
EAA Flight Line Operations

Well said, and it has an added plus. The more pilots that take the
"accident announcement" to mean that the hold will be longer than they are
comfortable with, the more pilots that may leave the congested airspace and
resultantly open up more room and a larger safety factor for not only
themselves, but for those pilots who decide to stay in the hold.

It's a win for those who want to leave, it's a win for those who want to
stay, and it's a win for the controllers.

Jim


"Jose" wrote in message
. ..
How? What changes in your evaluation from "hold there" to "hold there
because of an accident"?

Each pilot will make their own determination. What changes in =my= view
is that after an accident, there would likely be cleanup and
investigation, and the runway may be closed for a long time. I would
probably choose to divert if a circuit or two doesn't clear it up.
Other reasons for holds are more ephemeral.

It is true, I could make the wrong decision, but it would be =my=
decision. I value that.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

How long will it be? I seriously want to know.

Minimum for a collapsed gear, 30 minutes, fatal acciden t60 - 90 minutes,
would be close.
--
Jim in NC

Morgans,

Minimum for a collapsed gear, 30 minutes, fatal acciden t60 - 90 minutes,
would be close.


So if a controller says "delay due to accident", you have a 300 percent
error margin, with 30 minutes probably being sensible to wait out and 90
minutes being a little on the long side. I wouldn't know what to do with
that information, but, well, that's just me.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

And I choose to take that 1 to 3 hour wait back at Portage, where I can have
a couple of more morning brats, listen to 120.7 for the chatter to start
back up, fill up the tanks, and relax.

As for not announcing that the incident/accident was fatal, not a problem.
Simply say "accident" and be done with it. Now we know it isn't airport
overload.

Oshkosh and "gottagetthere" don't belong in the same sentence.

Jim



"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
nk.net...


One hour minimum.