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In article , Dave Stadt wrote:
Two other points. One, it is surprising how many of the timebuilders have never been in actual IFR conditions. Two, many of the good instructors are I never realized how good I had it in Seattle. Many of the "time builder" instructors specifically moved there to get IMC experience. Lately, I've been talking about self-selecting samples in another context, but it applies here. Those "time-builder" instructors who deliberately sought out the IMC conditions of Seattle were a cut above others becasue they had the drive to go out and seek the experience. Morris |
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Peter;
Although this post is under you, it's mainly addressed to the group as a whole for it's general content. I'm dealing here more with the poster you answered than with you personally, as what you have said is quite correct and appropriate, so bear with me if you will while I dig into this a bit. It goes without saying that Peter is absolutely correct. I won't speak for instrument instruction, as I chose many years ago to specialize with the issues involved in primary instruction, then later on in highly advanced aerobatic instruction. I can see however, no specific reason why instrument instructors would be any different as far as teaching quals are concerned. First of all, there is absolutely nothing involved in owning an airplane that makes one better or not better qualified as an instructor....absolutely nothing. Secondly, I have known many instructors through my career in aviation who have done nothing but teach who are in my opinion among the finest CFI's I've ever known in professional aviation. It's unfortunate that there are indeed problems in the instruction community, but this has little if nothing to do with whether or not a specific pilot becomes a GOOD CFI. Any statement that a private pilot with 1000 hours could be a good instructor based on that qualification alone is so ridiculous I won't even address it, and I sincerely hope that the people on this group are smart enough to realize that this is pure nonsense. All this being said, really good instructors are unfortunately the minority in the CFI community, but pilots who generalize about instructor quality are making a basic 101mistake and don't know much about instructing. First of all, no competent comment by anyone knowing anything at all about the instruction issues involves generalization of any kind. In fact, in flying, generalization is the first thing you learn to avoid as a competent CFI. SPECIFICS is what flying is all about, and SPECIFICS are what you have to deal with in discussing CFI issues. The time builders have always been with us and always will be with us as long as giving dual is the cheap path to a building block system that requires the time being spent in the air to qualify for bigger and better things. There's a pertinent point that should be made about this. Being a time builder doesn't necessarily disqualify a specific CFI as being on the negative side of the quality equation! This is important to understand when posters like the one Pete has answered lay this issue out there as a negative. Again...it's SPECIFICS we need in evaluating an instructor...not generalities! I personally have known many time builders who were excellent instructors. The fact that they were building time had absolutely nothing to do with the quality of their teaching and the manner in which they treated their students. Thank you Peter :-) Dudley Henriques International Fighter Pilots Fellowship for email; take out the trash "Peter MacPherson" wrote in message news:jY9kd.386904$D%.80590@attbi_s51... I think your proportions are wrong (though not your descriptions) - it's about 90% timebuilders and 10% old hands. And I think you make an excellent point - an instructor who does almost no flying other than instruction isn't generally much of an instructor. Neither is someone who has never owned an airplane. Michael, I agree with some of your points, but this is a pretty silly generalization. I've used the same CFI for all of my ratings from private through MEI and he is a full time instructor. Meaning he does "almost no flying other than instruction". He is hands down the best instructor I've ever flown with. We flew in actual a lot during my instrument training and did approaches down to minimums, minimums at night, rainy/windy approaches at night, etc.. He also does not own his own plane. How does owning your own airplane make you a better instructor? I own my own airplane, have "another job", fly a lot of actual, and he is STILL a better instructor than I. I agree that there are a lot of inexperienced instructors out there, but maybe it's because they don't like to fly in actual and/or don't have a lot of time. But if the instructor is doing it full time, doing lots of cross country flying in all types of wx , how is he less of an instructor than the guy that flies on his own and owns his own plane? I've also flown with CFI's that were full time part 135 pilots that were good pilots but not very good instructors. Pete "Michael" wrote in message om... (Robert M. Gary) wrote One of the reasons I became an instructor was because I was frustrated with teh CFIs out there. aol me too /aol I bitched about it for years, and finally I decided it was time to be part of the solution rather than part of the problem. I encourage any owner who feels the same way to do as I did. Becoming a CFI involves a lot of jumping through FAA hoops, but it's certainly not difficult or challenging. In fact, I can't say it requires acquiring any skill or knowledge that the average 1000 hour instrument rated private pilot owner doesn't already have. 1/2 of them are young guys who have never owned an airplane before and have never even gone on a long cross country. The other 1/2 are the old guys who used to be professional pilot but haven't been in an airplane without a student in 20 years. I think your proportions are wrong (though not your descriptions) - it's about 90% timebuilders and 10% old hands. And I think you make an excellent point - an instructor who does almost no flying other than instruction isn't generally much of an instructor. Neither is someone who has never owned an airplane. I actively fly my Mooney all over the country (and other countries) and end up in real world weather (not training weather where you cancel because its too cold to walk out to the plane). I felt there was a need for CFIs that really do use these little planes to get around in real weather and real situations. However, since I have a regular job, I don't get as much time to teach as I'd like. aol me too /aol Only I fly my Twin Comanche that way. Before I bought it, I flew my TriPacer the same way (though I admit I got stuck a bit more and needed a lot more time to get places). You might not think a TriPacer is much of a go-places airplane, but when I owned it, I took it South to the Gulf of Mexico, North to the Great Lakes, East to the Statue of Liberty, and West to the Golden Gate. And you've pretty much nailed the key issue - time. Those of us who have full time jobs that pay enough to support an airplane and do our own flying don't have the time to hang around the FBO waiting for a student to maybe show up. We will MAKE time to teach. As a result, when you walk into the FBO and 'interview' some random instructor, you're not getting an owner who flies his own airplane on real trips in real weather. He's not out there waiting for a student to maybe show up. He probably has all the students he can handle, because he doesn't have the time (what with his job and all) to fly more than about 200-300 hours a year, and he probably wants at least half those hours to be his own flying, not instruction. He may not be associated with an FBO at all, training only owners in their own airplanes, or he may be part time - but in any case when you ask for an instructor at the front desk of the FBO you won't be getting his name. In reality, it's quite easy to find a good instructor. Here's how. Forget the FBO - walk around the hangars, and ask the owners who does their training (BFR's, IPC's, transition training when they upgrade). THOSE are the good instructors. Michael |
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Very well said Dudley.
"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message hlink.net... Peter; Although this post is under you, it's mainly addressed to the group as a whole for it's general content. I'm dealing here more with the poster you answered than with you personally, as what you have said is quite correct and appropriate, so bear with me if you will while I dig into this a bit. It goes without saying that Peter is absolutely correct. I won't speak for instrument instruction, as I chose many years ago to specialize with the issues involved in primary instruction, then later on in highly advanced aerobatic instruction. I can see however, no specific reason why instrument instructors would be any different as far as teaching quals are concerned. First of all, there is absolutely nothing involved in owning an airplane that makes one better or not better qualified as an instructor....absolutely nothing. Secondly, I have known many instructors through my career in aviation who have done nothing but teach who are in my opinion among the finest CFI's I've ever known in professional aviation. It's unfortunate that there are indeed problems in the instruction community, but this has little if nothing to do with whether or not a specific pilot becomes a GOOD CFI. Any statement that a private pilot with 1000 hours could be a good instructor based on that qualification alone is so ridiculous I won't even address it, and I sincerely hope that the people on this group are smart enough to realize that this is pure nonsense. All this being said, really good instructors are unfortunately the minority in the CFI community, but pilots who generalize about instructor quality are making a basic 101mistake and don't know much about instructing. First of all, no competent comment by anyone knowing anything at all about the instruction issues involves generalization of any kind. In fact, in flying, generalization is the first thing you learn to avoid as a competent CFI. SPECIFICS is what flying is all about, and SPECIFICS are what you have to deal with in discussing CFI issues. The time builders have always been with us and always will be with us as long as giving dual is the cheap path to a building block system that requires the time being spent in the air to qualify for bigger and better things. There's a pertinent point that should be made about this. Being a time builder doesn't necessarily disqualify a specific CFI as being on the negative side of the quality equation! This is important to understand when posters like the one Pete has answered lay this issue out there as a negative. Again...it's SPECIFICS we need in evaluating an instructor...not generalities! I personally have known many time builders who were excellent instructors. The fact that they were building time had absolutely nothing to do with the quality of their teaching and the manner in which they treated their students. Thank you Peter :-) Dudley Henriques International Fighter Pilots Fellowship for email; take out the trash "Peter MacPherson" wrote in message news:jY9kd.386904$D%.80590@attbi_s51... I think your proportions are wrong (though not your descriptions) - it's about 90% timebuilders and 10% old hands. And I think you make an excellent point - an instructor who does almost no flying other than instruction isn't generally much of an instructor. Neither is someone who has never owned an airplane. Michael, I agree with some of your points, but this is a pretty silly generalization. I've used the same CFI for all of my ratings from private through MEI and he is a full time instructor. Meaning he does "almost no flying other than instruction". He is hands down the best instructor I've ever flown with. We flew in actual a lot during my instrument training and did approaches down to minimums, minimums at night, rainy/windy approaches at night, etc.. He also does not own his own plane. How does owning your own airplane make you a better instructor? I own my own airplane, have "another job", fly a lot of actual, and he is STILL a better instructor than I. I agree that there are a lot of inexperienced instructors out there, but maybe it's because they don't like to fly in actual and/or don't have a lot of time. But if the instructor is doing it full time, doing lots of cross country flying in all types of wx , how is he less of an instructor than the guy that flies on his own and owns his own plane? I've also flown with CFI's that were full time part 135 pilots that were good pilots but not very good instructors. Pete "Michael" wrote in message om... (Robert M. Gary) wrote One of the reasons I became an instructor was because I was frustrated with teh CFIs out there. aol me too /aol I bitched about it for years, and finally I decided it was time to be part of the solution rather than part of the problem. I encourage any owner who feels the same way to do as I did. Becoming a CFI involves a lot of jumping through FAA hoops, but it's certainly not difficult or challenging. In fact, I can't say it requires acquiring any skill or knowledge that the average 1000 hour instrument rated private pilot owner doesn't already have. 1/2 of them are young guys who have never owned an airplane before and have never even gone on a long cross country. The other 1/2 are the old guys who used to be professional pilot but haven't been in an airplane without a student in 20 years. I think your proportions are wrong (though not your descriptions) - it's about 90% timebuilders and 10% old hands. And I think you make an excellent point - an instructor who does almost no flying other than instruction isn't generally much of an instructor. Neither is someone who has never owned an airplane. I actively fly my Mooney all over the country (and other countries) and end up in real world weather (not training weather where you cancel because its too cold to walk out to the plane). I felt there was a need for CFIs that really do use these little planes to get around in real weather and real situations. However, since I have a regular job, I don't get as much time to teach as I'd like. aol me too /aol Only I fly my Twin Comanche that way. Before I bought it, I flew my TriPacer the same way (though I admit I got stuck a bit more and needed a lot more time to get places). You might not think a TriPacer is much of a go-places airplane, but when I owned it, I took it South to the Gulf of Mexico, North to the Great Lakes, East to the Statue of Liberty, and West to the Golden Gate. And you've pretty much nailed the key issue - time. Those of us who have full time jobs that pay enough to support an airplane and do our own flying don't have the time to hang around the FBO waiting for a student to maybe show up. We will MAKE time to teach. As a result, when you walk into the FBO and 'interview' some random instructor, you're not getting an owner who flies his own airplane on real trips in real weather. He's not out there waiting for a student to maybe show up. He probably has all the students he can handle, because he doesn't have the time (what with his job and all) to fly more than about 200-300 hours a year, and he probably wants at least half those hours to be his own flying, not instruction. He may not be associated with an FBO at all, training only owners in their own airplanes, or he may be part time - but in any case when you ask for an instructor at the front desk of the FBO you won't be getting his name. In reality, it's quite easy to find a good instructor. Here's how. Forget the FBO - walk around the hangars, and ask the owners who does their training (BFR's, IPC's, transition training when they upgrade). THOSE are the good instructors. Michael |
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In article k.net, Dudley Henriques wrote: First of all, there is absolutely nothing involved in owning an airplane that makes one better or not better qualified as an instructor....absolutely nothing. There are things you learn about flying by going places that you don't learn sitting in the training environment. None of it's on the PTS, but it's vital information if you're going to fly out beyond hectobuck- burger range. This is objective truth. If you don't fly long trips, you just won't know what you're missing. As a renter pilot, such trips are inaccessible or prohibitive. As graduate student, er, instructor, most "timebuilders" just won't have the money to pay for this kind of training, and it doesn't advance their careers. Secondly, I have known many instructors through my career in aviation who have done nothing but teach who are in my opinion among the finest CFI's I've ever known in professional aviation. I'm sure you have. But you can be an expert in something specialized and less than completely knowledgable in something related. Pick an example. Say an instructor chose to specialize in primary training. Such an instructor would probably be a bad choice to go with for instrument training. Any statement that a private pilot with 1000 hours could be a good instructor based on that qualification alone is so ridiculous I won't even address it, and I sincerely hope that the people on this group are smart enough to realize that this is pure nonsense. I didn't make the statement, so I don't have to defend it, but it's not _pure_ nonsense. Rather, it's mildly impure nonsense. IOW, there is a grain of something useful there. It's safe to assume that someone with 1000 hours of actually going places has learned something worth teaching to to someone who wants to use an airplane to actually go places. Whether that alone makes them competent at teaching is another thing entirely. All this being said, really good instructors are unfortunately the minority in the CFI community, but pilots who generalize about You can pretty much generalize that to any area of teaching. The time builders have always been with us and always will be with us as long as giving dual is the cheap path to a building block system that requires the time being spent in the air to qualify for bigger and better things. There's a pertinent point that should be made about this. Being a time builder doesn't necessarily disqualify a specific CFI as being on the negative side of the quality equation! This is important to Absolutely. I've met more conscientious and less conscientious instructors, but I've generally been lucky with the ones I've had. You don't need kilo-hours and kilo-mile trips to be a good instructor for primary training (to pick a random example). And a good primary instructor doesn't need to be a good instrument instructor. Morris |
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"Peter MacPherson" wrote in message news:jY9kd.386904$D%.80590@attbi_s51...
How does owning your own airplane make you a better instructor? I own my own airplane, have "another job", fly a lot of actual, and he is STILL a better instructor than I. I think "better" may be a relative term. A CFI that only does training will be very good at getting you through the checkride. However, when you ask real questions, like how to you manage ice you will be met with a blank face. As an example, any CFI who says the solution to ice in a non-ice approved plane is to stay out of the ice has never really flown IFR outside of the training env. In actual flying (long cross countries, flying IFR because you need to) you will end up getting ice when its not forcast and not suppose to be there. Having the practical background on how to come up with alternates and what type of ice to expect in what real-world situations, how different types of ice can be escaped, is where a good CFI gives benefit. Getting out of clear ice can be different than getting out of rime simply because of the environment they form in. Any CFI can read the FAA pubs and spew back what the pubs say. Owning a plane and flying it all over the place is one way to get this experience. Flying 135 could be another. Having said all this, none of this makes someone good at teaching. Teaching is mostly an art, you either have it or not. The best CFIs combine a natural ability to teach with real world experience of flying. -Robert, CFI |
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Owning a plane and flying it all over the place is one way to get this
experience. Flying 135 could be another. Agreed, but instructors can also fly "all over the place" with their students. Like someone else said, the x-c's don't have to be 1000 miles to get good wx experience. A lot of part 135 pilots don't tend to fly very far. As another example, Cape Air which flies from Boston to the Islands(Nantucket, Martha's Vineyard) and other short hops, probably have some of the best wx pilots around. They fly through all New England wx....fog, ice, etc.. and they probably never fly more than 150 miles. So if these pilots are able to get this experience (difference in equipment noted) why do instructors need to be going "all over the place" to give their students some great wx experience? Having said all this, none of this makes someone good at teaching. Teaching is mostly an art, you either have it or not. The best CFIs combine a natural ability to teach with real world experience of flying. I don't agree that with teaching you either have it or not. I think if you have the aptitude, over time you become a better teacher every day you teach. I doubt that the best teachers you know were that good on their first day because "they had it". "Robert M. Gary" wrote in message om... "Peter MacPherson" wrote in message news:jY9kd.386904$D%.80590@attbi_s51... How does owning your own airplane make you a better instructor? I own my own airplane, have "another job", fly a lot of actual, and he is STILL a better instructor than I. I think "better" may be a relative term. A CFI that only does training will be very good at getting you through the checkride. However, when you ask real questions, like how to you manage ice you will be met with a blank face. As an example, any CFI who says the solution to ice in a non-ice approved plane is to stay out of the ice has never really flown IFR outside of the training env. In actual flying (long cross countries, flying IFR because you need to) you will end up getting ice when its not forcast and not suppose to be there. Having the practical background on how to come up with alternates and what type of ice to expect in what real-world situations, how different types of ice can be escaped, is where a good CFI gives benefit. Getting out of clear ice can be different than getting out of rime simply because of the environment they form in. Any CFI can read the FAA pubs and spew back what the pubs say. Owning a plane and flying it all over the place is one way to get this experience. Flying 135 could be another. Having said all this, none of this makes someone good at teaching. Teaching is mostly an art, you either have it or not. The best CFIs combine a natural ability to teach with real world experience of flying. -Robert, CFI |
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Michael wrote:
Neither is someone who has never owned an airplane. I'd never considered this variable before. How does it impact the teaching and what's taught? - Andrew |
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"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message m... One of the reasons I became an instructor was because I was frustrated with teh CFIs out there. 1/2 of them are young guys who have never owned an airplane before and have never even gone on a long cross country. The other 1/2 are the old guys who used to be professional pilot but haven't been in an airplane without a student in 20 years. I actively fly my Mooney all over the country (and other countries) and end up in real world weather (not training weather where you cancel because its too cold to walk out to the plane). I felt there was a need for CFIs that really do use these little planes to get around in real weather and real situations. However, since I have a regular job, I don't get as much time to teach as I'd like. -Robert Robert, you sound like a cool instructor. Most the instructors around here smoke like a chimney and are in a rush to get to the bar to watch the game and have a few drinks, don't show up to early morning appointments or think their stools don't stink and have bad personal hygiene. Some one them will not even commit to your training just leach on you to build time at your expense. |
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