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Future of Electronics In Aviation
Hi All,
I have noticed that each time this subject is broached, there seem to be many who are perturbed by the idea of electronics/software assuming a primary role (control, stabilization, etc.) in GA aircraft. There are some who believe that electronics and software are sorely underutilized. The electronics that are used are mostly employed in an ancillary role, like providing data to a pilot, etc. There are others who feel that electronics should be fundamentally integral to the design of the aircraft from the start, meaning that any potential opportunity for use of electronics should be employed, as it is almost always the case that digital version of a mechanical, analog part is better on many axes, including weight, cost, reliability, controllability, etc. Ken Tucker mentioned a rotary wing aircraft for his project. I have not specified what type of propulsion mechanism I have in mind for my project. Both of us feel that electronic, fly-by-wire is the future of aviation. What do you think? 1. Do you think that current GA aircraft use not enough electronics? 2. Do you think that current GA aircraft use too much electronics? 3. Do you think electronics should retain a peripheral role ? (Garmin, etc) but not be used in control paths (fly-by-wire)? 4. What role will electronics play in aicraft designed in the year 2108? 5. What will the aircraft look like in 2108? 6. Any other thoughts... -Le Chaud Lapin- Here is an excerpt from a concurrent thread, where the conversation seems to be turning toward Electronics-Or-Not: On Jun 19, 11:16 am, wrote: On Jun 19, 10:40 am, wrote: On Jun 19, 7:26 am, wrote: The notion of first principles, like some of the conservation laws, seems to be lost on Le Chaud and others. He calls himself an engineer, but seems not very familiar with Newton, or concepts like energy density when talking about a prime mover, or. . . but why go on? Austin has its village idiot. Lots of guys like that. The idea that electronics can somehow make an airplane lighter and faster and better, all at once, is just an obsession with electronics and computers. The idea that electric power is green is another falsehood; where does most electricity come from? Hydroelectric dams (devastated valleys), coal (dirty), natural gas (CO2 and an increasingly limited resource), nuclear (dangerous and waste problems), and so on. Hydrogen fuel cells, even if they worked well and were affordable, require hydrogen, which requires the electrolysis of water, which needs vast amounts of electricity. Other methods of storage involve heavy metals and their dangers. The idea that a helicopter is easy to build (with biplane blades, yet, which was tried in the early years of 'copters) just reveals that the writer knows nothing of the problems that gyroscopic precession present to all rotating components of the helicopter, to say nothing of the AOA and airspeed variations of all rotor blades during flight. Helicopter flight is appallingly complex and it's a wonder it happened so soon after fixed-wing flight (35 years or so). Dan Here is a frightening thought. If Le Chaud is in fact an engineer, someone is paying him money for his lack of knowledge of basics, like the power demand to keep a something with a specific gravity greater than its environment suspended there. Well, that may be second term physics. Lift ferries indeed. I wonder how long it would take me to understand his true worth -- I do make mistakes in hiring, but rarely in discharging. |
#2
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Future of Electronics In Aviation
Le Chaud Lapin wrote:
What do you think? I think you are off-topic for rec.aviation.student Please do not crosspost to non-relevant groups. |
#3
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Future of Electronics In Aviation
On Jun 19, 12:40*pm, Jim Stewart wrote:
Le Chaud Lapin wrote: What do you think? I think you are off-topic for rec.aviation.student Please do not crosspost to non-relevant groups. Both groups begin with "rec", which means "recreation" to mean, which applies at least a minimal amount of amusement. And since students possess brains, ideas, and opinions, just as do licensed pilots, they might find the post just as amusing as pilots. -Le Chaud Lapin- |
#4
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Future of Electronics In Aviation
In rec.aviation.piloting Le Chaud Lapin wrote:
Hi All, I have noticed that each time this subject is broached, there seem to be many who are perturbed by the idea of electronics/software assuming a primary role (control, stabilization, etc.) in GA aircraft. There are some who believe that electronics and software are sorely underutilized. The electronics that are used are mostly employed in an ancillary role, like providing data to a pilot, etc. There are others who feel that electronics should be fundamentally integral to the design of the aircraft from the start, meaning that any potential opportunity for use of electronics should be employed, as it is almost always the case that digital version of a mechanical, analog part is better on many axes, including weight, cost, reliability, controllability, etc. Ken Tucker mentioned a rotary wing aircraft for his project. I have not specified what type of propulsion mechanism I have in mind for my project. Both of us feel that electronic, fly-by-wire is the future of aviation. What do you think? 1. Do you think that current GA aircraft use not enough electronics? 2. Do you think that current GA aircraft use too much electronics? 3. Do you think electronics should retain a peripheral role ? (Garmin, etc) but not be used in control paths (fly-by-wire)? 4. What role will electronics play in aicraft designed in the year 2108? 5. What will the aircraft look like in 2108? 6. Any other thoughts... 1. Real things cost real money. 2. If some gizmo in an automobile goes tits up, you coast to the side of the road and call AAA. If some gizmo in an airplane goes tits up, the outcome probably won't be as benign. 3. There's an old aerospace saying about certain people that goes along the lines of "He always seems to be able to come up the the ten thousand dollar solution to the 98 cent problem". 4. Have you seen a current production aircraft? 5. Have you seen the price tag of a current production aircraft? 6. Fly by wire was invented to solve the problems of huge control forces in big airplanes and instability in highly manueverable aircraft such as fighters. Neither problem exists in GA aircraft. -- Jim Pennino Remove .spam.sux to reply. |
#5
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Future of Electronics In Aviation
On Jun 19, 1:05*pm, wrote:
In rec.aviation.piloting Le Chaud Lapin wrote: Hi All, I have noticed that each time this subject is broached, there seem to be many who are perturbed by the idea of electronics/software assuming a primary role (control, stabilization, etc.) in GA aircraft. There are some who believe that electronics and software are sorely underutilized. *The electronics that are used are mostly employed in an ancillary role, like providing data to a pilot, etc. There are others who feel that electronics should be fundamentally integral to the design of the aircraft from the start, meaning that any potential opportunity for use of electronics should be employed, as it is almost always the case that digital version of a mechanical, analog part is better on many axes, including weight, cost, reliability, controllability, etc. Ken Tucker mentioned a rotary wing aircraft for his project. *I have not specified what type of propulsion mechanism I have in mind for my project. Both of us feel that electronic, fly-by-wire is the future of aviation. What do you think? 1. Do you think that current GA aircraft use not enough electronics? 2. Do you think that current GA aircraft use too much electronics? 3. Do you think electronics should retain a peripheral role ? (Garmin, etc) but not be used in control paths (fly-by-wire)? 4. What role will electronics play in aicraft designed in the year 2108? 5. What will the aircraft look like in 2108? 6. Any other thoughts... 1. Real things cost real money. 2. If some gizmo in an automobile goes tits up, you coast to the side of * *the road and call AAA. If some gizmo in an airplane goes tits up, * *the outcome probably won't be as benign. 3. There's an old aerospace saying about certain people that goes along * *the lines of "He always seems to be able to come up the the ten * *thousand dollar solution to the 98 cent problem". 4. Have you seen a current production aircraft? 5. Have you seen the price tag of a current production aircraft? 6. Fly by wire was invented to solve the problems of huge control * *forces in big airplanes and instability in highly manueverable * *aircraft such as fighters. Neither problem exists in GA aircraft. I must ask then, if one were to look at a typical GA aircraft, in the year 2100, in your opinion, will it be as devoid of electro-mechanical controls as it is today? What will it look like? -Le Chaud Lapin- |
#6
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Future of Electronics In Aviation
In rec.aviation.piloting Le Chaud Lapin wrote:
On Jun 19, 1:05?pm, wrote: In rec.aviation.piloting Le Chaud Lapin wrote: Hi All, I have noticed that each time this subject is broached, there seem to be many who are perturbed by the idea of electronics/software assuming a primary role (control, stabilization, etc.) in GA aircraft. There are some who believe that electronics and software are sorely underutilized. ?The electronics that are used are mostly employed in an ancillary role, like providing data to a pilot, etc. There are others who feel that electronics should be fundamentally integral to the design of the aircraft from the start, meaning that any potential opportunity for use of electronics should be employed, as it is almost always the case that digital version of a mechanical, analog part is better on many axes, including weight, cost, reliability, controllability, etc. Ken Tucker mentioned a rotary wing aircraft for his project. ?I have not specified what type of propulsion mechanism I have in mind for my project. Both of us feel that electronic, fly-by-wire is the future of aviation. What do you think? 1. Do you think that current GA aircraft use not enough electronics? 2. Do you think that current GA aircraft use too much electronics? 3. Do you think electronics should retain a peripheral role ? (Garmin, etc) but not be used in control paths (fly-by-wire)? 4. What role will electronics play in aicraft designed in the year 2108? 5. What will the aircraft look like in 2108? 6. Any other thoughts... 1. Real things cost real money. 2. If some gizmo in an automobile goes tits up, you coast to the side of ? ?the road and call AAA. If some gizmo in an airplane goes tits up, ? ?the outcome probably won't be as benign. 3. There's an old aerospace saying about certain people that goes along ? ?the lines of "He always seems to be able to come up the the ten ? ?thousand dollar solution to the 98 cent problem". 4. Have you seen a current production aircraft? 5. Have you seen the price tag of a current production aircraft? 6. Fly by wire was invented to solve the problems of huge control ? ?forces in big airplanes and instability in highly manueverable ? ?aircraft such as fighters. Neither problem exists in GA aircraft. I must ask then, if one were to look at a typical GA aircraft, in the year 2100, in your opinion, will it be as devoid of electro-mechanical controls as it is today? Since electro-mechanical adds cost, complexity, and weight with no advantage, what do you think? What will it look like? Like they do now. -- Jim Pennino Remove .spam.sux to reply. |
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Future of Electronics In Aviation
On Jun 19, 1:35*pm, wrote:
In rec.aviation.piloting Le Chaud Lapin wrote: On Jun 19, 1:05?pm, wrote: In rec.aviation.piloting Le Chaud Lapin wrote: Hi All, I have noticed that each time this subject is broached, there seem to be many who are perturbed by the idea of electronics/software assuming a primary role (control, stabilization, etc.) in GA aircraft. There are some who believe that electronics and software are sorely underutilized. ?The electronics that are used are mostly employed in an ancillary role, like providing data to a pilot, etc. There are others who feel that electronics should be fundamentally integral to the design of the aircraft from the start, meaning that any potential opportunity for use of electronics should be employed, as it is almost always the case that digital version of a mechanical, analog part is better on many axes, including weight, cost, reliability, controllability, etc. Ken Tucker mentioned a rotary wing aircraft for his project. ?I have not specified what type of propulsion mechanism I have in mind for my project. Both of us feel that electronic, fly-by-wire is the future of aviation. What do you think? 1. Do you think that current GA aircraft use not enough electronics? 2. Do you think that current GA aircraft use too much electronics? 3. Do you think electronics should retain a peripheral role ? (Garmin, etc) but not be used in control paths (fly-by-wire)? 4. What role will electronics play in aicraft designed in the year 2108? 5. What will the aircraft look like in 2108? 6. Any other thoughts... 1. Real things cost real money. 2. If some gizmo in an automobile goes tits up, you coast to the side of ? ?the road and call AAA. If some gizmo in an airplane goes tits up, ? ?the outcome probably won't be as benign. 3. There's an old aerospace saying about certain people that goes along ? ?the lines of "He always seems to be able to come up the the ten ? ?thousand dollar solution to the 98 cent problem". 4. Have you seen a current production aircraft? 5. Have you seen the price tag of a current production aircraft? 6. Fly by wire was invented to solve the problems of huge control ? ?forces in big airplanes and instability in highly manueverable ? ?aircraft such as fighters. Neither problem exists in GA aircraft. I must ask then, if one were to look at a typical GA aircraft, in the year 2100, in your opinion, will it be as devoid of electro-mechanical controls as it is today? Since electro-mechanical adds cost, complexity, and weight with no advantage, what do you think? I think the opposite. What will it look like? Like they do now. I guess that's reasonable. It is conceivable that typical Cessna willl look the same in 2108 as it does in 2008. How about 2508? Will the typical Cessna (or whatever dominant GA manufacturer make) look roughly the same in 2508 as it does in 2008, using essentially the same mechanical controls (wires, pulleys, bellcranks, etc.) -Le Chaud Lapin- |
#8
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Future of Electronics In Aviation
In rec.aviation.piloting Le Chaud Lapin wrote:
On Jun 19, 1:35?pm, wrote: In rec.aviation.piloting Le Chaud Lapin wrote: snip old crap Since electro-mechanical adds cost, complexity, and weight with no advantage, what do you think? I think the opposite. GA aircraft are neither unstable (nor can they be by regulation) nor are they big enough to have large control forces. So what's the advantage? What will it look like? Like they do now. I guess that's reasonable. It is conceivable that typical Cessna willl look the same in 2108 as it does in 2008. How about 2508? Like they do now. Will the typical Cessna (or whatever dominant GA manufacturer make) look roughly the same in 2508 as it does in 2008, using essentially the same mechanical controls (wires, pulleys, bellcranks, etc.) Aircraft will look like they do now until some huge new technology gets invented such as anti-gravity or the impulse engines of Star Trek, in which case they will probably look like Star Trek shuttle craft. The basic problems of small, propellor driven aircraft with aerodynamic control surfaces were solved about 80 years ago and the physics is immutable. Electric staplers are real products that one can buy, however how many people buy them when the problem at hand is to staple a couple of sheets of paper every once in a while? Whiz bang electronic doodads on airplanes are just the same; they are only bought where there is a justification for the added cost and complexity. -- Jim Pennino Remove .spam.sux to reply. |
#9
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Future of Electronics In Aviation
"Le Chaud Lapin" wrote in message ... On Jun 19, 1:35 pm, wrote: In rec.aviation.piloting Le Chaud Lapin wrote: On Jun 19, 1:05?pm, wrote: In rec.aviation.piloting Le Chaud Lapin wrote: Hi All, I have noticed that each time this subject is broached, there seem to be many who are perturbed by the idea of electronics/software assuming a primary role (control, stabilization, etc.) in GA aircraft. There are some who believe that electronics and software are sorely underutilized. ?The electronics that are used are mostly employed in an ancillary role, like providing data to a pilot, etc. There are others who feel that electronics should be fundamentally integral to the design of the aircraft from the start, meaning that any potential opportunity for use of electronics should be employed, as it is almost always the case that digital version of a mechanical, analog part is better on many axes, including weight, cost, reliability, controllability, etc. Ken Tucker mentioned a rotary wing aircraft for his project. ?I have not specified what type of propulsion mechanism I have in mind for my project. Both of us feel that electronic, fly-by-wire is the future of aviation. What do you think? 1. Do you think that current GA aircraft use not enough electronics? 2. Do you think that current GA aircraft use too much electronics? 3. Do you think electronics should retain a peripheral role ? (Garmin, etc) but not be used in control paths (fly-by-wire)? 4. What role will electronics play in aicraft designed in the year 2108? 5. What will the aircraft look like in 2108? 6. Any other thoughts... 1. Real things cost real money. 2. If some gizmo in an automobile goes tits up, you coast to the side of ? ?the road and call AAA. If some gizmo in an airplane goes tits up, ? ?the outcome probably won't be as benign. 3. There's an old aerospace saying about certain people that goes along ? ?the lines of "He always seems to be able to come up the the ten ? ?thousand dollar solution to the 98 cent problem". 4. Have you seen a current production aircraft? 5. Have you seen the price tag of a current production aircraft? 6. Fly by wire was invented to solve the problems of huge control ? ?forces in big airplanes and instability in highly manueverable ? ?aircraft such as fighters. Neither problem exists in GA aircraft. I must ask then, if one were to look at a typical GA aircraft, in the year 2100, in your opinion, will it be as devoid of electro-mechanical controls as it is today? Since electro-mechanical adds cost, complexity, and weight with no advantage, what do you think? I think the opposite. What will it look like? Like they do now. I guess that's reasonable. It is conceivable that typical Cessna willl look the same in 2108 as it does in 2008. How about 2508? By then it will be anti-gravity or we wont need to fly we will travel through the internet and there will be no planes. |
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Future of Electronics In Aviation
Le Chaud Lapin wrote:
I must ask then, if one were to look at a typical GA aircraft, in the year 2100, in your opinion, will it be as devoid of electro-mechanical controls as it is today? What will it look like? According to my inside source at Spacely Sprockets, it'll look like this : http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n...nrider/jet.gif John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180) -- Message posted via AviationKB.com http://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums...ation/200806/1 |
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