Winch Experts wanted

Craig Freeman wrote:
Marc Ramsey wrote
Craig Freeman wrote:
By a show of hands is there anyone out there who might actually
build a winch if such a design were presented?

I'd build one, but with the constraint that it can be built on a trailer
that can be pulled by a mid-size pickup or SUV (under 4000 lbs. total).
Anything larger, or built on a truck is, in my opinion, not practical
for anything other than primarily fixed site usage.

Portable sure sounds nice. Hmmm...saw a scooter version made from a
Yamaha 250 scooter, for hang gliders (way too little hp). Another idea
is a snowmobile. I wonder if the back axle would work as a winch G.
I've never driven one so I don't know if they're
automatic or manual...

I've seen a bunch of surplus 150 to 200 hp electric motors
for $3,000 to $5,000. Seems like a very logical choice (much cleaner,
easier to control, not as much fire danger, simple, etc.).
But definitely this is a fixed winch (and how does one get 500 volts and
100 amps for a power supply? At Avenal if it ran
the whole city might go dim The 50 car batteries idea is only
$2,000 to $5,000 but one wonders if this and a generator isn't
silly instead of just power coming off a city line...
I dunno if this is easily possible, but I'll ask my brother
(he's a commercial electrician).

New electric motors in the same hp are about 5x to 10x as expensive.
--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

Unless a mass batteries are used, the logistic of supplying
power to several possible winch stations around and
airfield to provide a days winching seems very expensive,
although a 'plug in and play' system would be an ideal
way of operating.

Has anyone considered the use of 'Hydrostatic Pumps'

Using the main engine to drive a hydraulic compressing
pump, as used on mechanical diggers etc, a hydrostatic
pump on each individual drum would provide the power
to launch the glider.

It would remove the need for complex mechanics and
by a simple system of taps could drive any one of a
number of individual drums.

Using deep sided drums without pay on gear would reduce
build costs and time.

Building the winch on a trailer would be simple, mobile
and may be cheaper than using complex mechanical drives.
It would also be simple to maintain. I understand modern
pumps can be programmed and controlled electronically.


The main pumps can provide sufficient power as can
be seen on mechanical diggers, but they are only pumping
us a telescopic ram. I believe they are used on slow
moving agricultural equipment to provide drive to the
main wheels.

The question is could the pumps provide the power and
speed to drive a drum for several minutes to enable
a glider to be launched.

Similar pumps can be seen at

http://www.casappa.com/

Although I am sure they will be available throughout
the world.


Dave

Mark James Boyd wrote:
Craig Freeman wrote:

Marc Ramsey wrote

Craig Freeman wrote:

By a show of hands is there anyone out there who might actually
build a winch if such a design were presented?

I'd build one, but with the constraint that it can be built on a trailer
that can be pulled by a mid-size pickup or SUV (under 4000 lbs. total).
Anything larger, or built on a truck is, in my opinion, not practical
for anything other than primarily fixed site usage.


Portable sure sounds nice. Hmmm...saw a scooter version made from a
Yamaha 250 scooter, for hang gliders (way too little hp). Another idea
is a snowmobile. I wonder if the back axle would work as a winch G.
I've never driven one so I don't know if they're
automatic or manual...

I've seen a bunch of surplus 150 to 200 hp electric motors
for $3,000 to $5,000. Seems like a very logical choice (much cleaner,
easier to control, not as much fire danger, simple, etc.).
But definitely this is a fixed winch (and how does one get 500 volts and
100 amps for a power supply? At Avenal if it ran
the whole city might go dim The 50 car batteries idea is only
$2,000 to $5,000 but one wonders if this and a generator isn't
silly instead of just power coming off a city line...
I dunno if this is easily possible, but I'll ask my brother
(he's a commercial electrician).

New electric motors in the same hp are about 5x to 10x as expensive.
--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA
I have seen EV Dragsters with electric forklift motors putting out 500
HP. Can pull a 3000 lb car Down the 1/4 mile in 14 or so sec.
Now where to get the 440 volts dc from

home built up to 70 mph, 50 to 100 mile range, 1000 foot lbs of torque
Lots of info here.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EVList/messages/

"Aardvark" wrote in message
. ..
Mark James Boyd wrote:
Craig Freeman wrote:

Marc Ramsey wrote

Craig Freeman wrote:

By a show of hands is there anyone out there who might actually
build a winch if such a design were presented?

I'd build one, but with the constraint that it can be built on a
trailer
that can be pulled by a mid-size pickup or SUV (under 4000 lbs. total).
Anything larger, or built on a truck is, in my opinion, not
practical
for anything other than primarily fixed site usage.


Portable sure sounds nice. Hmmm...saw a scooter version made from a
Yamaha 250 scooter, for hang gliders (way too little hp). Another idea
is a snowmobile. I wonder if the back axle would work as a winch G.
I've never driven one so I don't know if they're
automatic or manual...

I've seen a bunch of surplus 150 to 200 hp electric motors
for $3,000 to $5,000. Seems like a very logical choice (much cleaner,
easier to control, not as much fire danger, simple, etc.).
But definitely this is a fixed winch (and how does one get 500 volts and
100 amps for a power supply? At Avenal if it ran
the whole city might go dim The 50 car batteries idea is only
$2,000 to $5,000 but one wonders if this and a generator isn't
silly instead of just power coming off a city line...
I dunno if this is easily possible, but I'll ask my brother
(he's a commercial electrician).

New electric motors in the same hp are about 5x to 10x as expensive.
--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA
I have seen EV Dragsters with electric forklift motors putting out 500
HP. Can pull a 3000 lb car Down the 1/4 mile in 14 or so sec.
Now where to get the 440 volts dc from

home built up to 70 mph, 50 to 100 mile range, 1000 foot lbs of torque
Lots of info here.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EVList/messages/

Before you guys get too far into an electric winch design, look up
"Ultracapacitors". Basically these are huge electrical capacitors that can
charge and discharge at extremely high amperages. Maxwell Technologies in
San Diego that makes the best ones in the world.
http://www.maxwell.com/index.html

Use a small generator set to charge a bank of ultracaps, then dump the
accumulated charge into your 500HP forklift motor.

Bill Daniels

In article ,
says...

"Littleboy" wrote in message
ews.com...
In article ,
says...
(Craig Freeman) wrote in message
. com...
"Bob Korves" wrote in message
...
"Craig Freeman" wrote in message


I am a parts person at an International Trucks (Navistar) dealer.
We are
full service dealers for International, Cummins, Detroit Diesel, and
Caterpillar engines. It is certainly possible to reprogram the
ECU's of
these diesels. We do it every day. Simple and easy enough for high
school
drop outs to do. I sell the software for reprogramming the engines.
Shrink
wrap stuff, just like at the computer store. That said, it would
probably
be possible to just replace the TPS (Throttle Position Sensor,
"electronic
foot pedal") with a microprocessor circuit and get the thing to do
what you
need. I am not a computer nerd, so I don't know the details...
-Bob Korves


I still hear too many stories from truck owners, (my company services
around 2000 trucks a month) that say after reprograming their rig at
the dealer something was not right and it had to be done again.
Believe
me I understand that some of them don't even know what is under the
hood of their K Whopper or Petercar but some do know a great deal.
The excess of 100 years of experience which my store managers have,
all certified deisel mechanics and former shop foreman's and service
writers with one the big three engine manufacturers, say yes we can
reprogram but results vary engine to engine and the only way to
know exactly what you have is to put it on the dyno. It will
probably be close but maybe not close enough for this application.
Maybe the tractor pull guys have it all figured out.
I wish to redirect your attention to the original proposition.
"to come up with a design for a safe, reliable, and cost effective
winch, which could be built by a group of amateurs in the USA
using commercially available parts without a whole lot of
modifications". I think that is a worthwhile goal and in the near
future some US clubs might begin to take advantage of such a design.
By a show of hands is there anyone out there who might actually
build a winch if such a design were presented? If not, we should
probably just go flying. Come on down Bill, I'll bet you dinner
I can snap your head back in that big ole heavy glider you are
flying too. Be sure and bring a heavy link with you.

Craig-

After more investigation I have the following which may help
carify the engine reprogramming discussion. Cummins, at least,
does sell disks which allow the owner to reprogram the ECU's of
their engines. However these disks allow only for the setting of
the peimeters of the engine. Examples are, top idle speed, idle
shut down, auto jake brake, but not HP and torque. When you change
HP and torque outputs it's called "recallibration" and these codes
are locked up by the OEM's and are not sold. Now for the good
news, there are aftermarket hackers selling "recallibration" codes
available for late model midsize diesels. Motorhome and diesel
pickup owners looking for more power are driving this industry.
It voids any warrenty of course but what a small price to pay
when you could get a tire smokin' dually one ton four door. YeeeHaa!!
I have a connection with one rather large aftermarket designer and
retailer. We have posed the question to him if he could build a
platform of codes which could increase HP in say 5 to 10 percent
increments and be able to input quickly from a laptop. One concern
is to select a engine which is designed to perform within the hp
range needed. We don't need to soup up a engine just control it's
output. Trying to detune a very large diesel has its own complications.

Craig-

Just a lurker here, with great interest in soaring, but little
experience. However, I may have some expertise in the subject of this
thread.

If I had never seen a sailplane winch, a clean sheet as it were, the
winch I would design would be an engine (fuel makes little difference
at this stage) and generator. The drums would be powered by an
electric motor(s) via a variable speed drive(s). A variable speed
drive can be programmed and operated through a computer, with
virtually every parameter of motor operation infinitely variable.

For example, the parameters for every sailplane could be configured
for the drive and then it would be a simple mouse click to set all
the launch variables for any sailplane configuration.

You could get so slick with this. Maximum cable speed could be set.
Maximum acceleration rates could be set. Every conceivable parameter
could be set and modified in seconds. Man, it would be so cool.

And another nice thing about it? Everything is very reliable, long
lived, and reasonably priced on the used market.

And there ain't nothin' that pulls like an electric motor. Ever been
on a high speed electric train? They just pull and pull and pull.
Maximum torque at zero rpm.

A good engineer would have a field day with this. What a great
project this could be.




Google: "Elektrostartwinde ESW 2B" and use the German to English language
tools. Search further with "segelflug elektrowinde". These boys use 50 car
batteries recharging them from the mains or a diesel genset.

Take a look at: http://www.skylaunch.de/album/index.html for a album of
winch pictures.

Look at: http://www.dassu.de/Wir_uber_uns/Ele...ktrowinde.html for
a stationary electric winch.

Electric winches could be (are) everything you say. My initial
investigation indicated the cost was way too high, but then I'm far from an
expert on high power electric drive stuff. Read the web pages above and
post your opinions.

Bill Daniels


Thanks for the links. As I said, not having any experience with a
launch winch can be helpful because of a lack of preconceived notions
of what a winch should be. On the other hand, it can be a hindrance
because you don't have the benefit of other peoples successes and
failures.

As I wrote the original post I was trying to ballpark costs but still
don't have a design fleshed out enough for even a rough estimate. My
first inclination would be to look for used equipment. Given the
current U.S. economy, and businesses leaving the U.S. In the
Southeast and Northeast of the U.S., textile mills leaving should
have left a surplus of good used electrical equipment on the market.

Fabrication and steel costs probably would be the largest single
component of costs. I think the electrical components would run 2nd,
followed by power wiring, and then control wiring. Then there would
be the miscellaneous costs (I think a safe, habitable control cab
would be nice).

One of the German sites animated the electrical equivilant of their
diesel winch at 1.5kWh. In the U.S. that would be about $0.15. They
used about 0.5l of diesel per launch. Cost today in the U.S. would be
about $0.25. I don't know how many launches a typical club could see
in a day, but I think one would have to figure in increased launch
efficiencies of winch vs. aerotow. Someone should have a good figure
for this.

One club is using a 330HP engine. That would lead me to believe a
200/250HP electric motor would more than do the job. That would be
240 amps at 480v, 3 phase. Figure a 400 amp service for this. A 400
amp receptacle could be mounted below grade in a waterproof box. the
winch could easily be cord connected. (We cord connected the USS
Nimitz at 5,000 volts, so a 400 amp 480 volt cord connection is a
piece of cake).

What intrigues me about this is using a variable speed drive. The
flexibility of controlling the winch would be phenomenal. Here's an
example: http://tinyurl.com/2zafh for a science fair project that
designed a sailplane airspeed telemetry system specifically for winch
launches. This value could easily be programmed into a variable speed
drive. Rate of approach to this value could also be controlled. This
is but one example.

There must be, in the whole U.S., an engineer that designs industrial
drive systems and that is also a sailplane pilot. This could be a
very interesting project to play around with.

In article ,
says...
Mark James Boyd wrote:
Craig Freeman wrote:

Marc Ramsey wrote

Craig Freeman wrote:

By a show of hands is there anyone out there who might actually
build a winch if such a design were presented?

I'd build one, but with the constraint that it can be built on a trailer
that can be pulled by a mid-size pickup or SUV (under 4000 lbs. total).
Anything larger, or built on a truck is, in my opinion, not practical
for anything other than primarily fixed site usage.


Portable sure sounds nice. Hmmm...saw a scooter version made from a
Yamaha 250 scooter, for hang gliders (way too little hp). Another idea
is a snowmobile. I wonder if the back axle would work as a winch G.
I've never driven one so I don't know if they're
automatic or manual...

I've seen a bunch of surplus 150 to 200 hp electric motors
for $3,000 to $5,000. Seems like a very logical choice (much cleaner,
easier to control, not as much fire danger, simple, etc.).
But definitely this is a fixed winch (and how does one get 500 volts and
100 amps for a power supply? At Avenal if it ran
the whole city might go dim The 50 car batteries idea is only
$2,000 to $5,000 but one wonders if this and a generator isn't
silly instead of just power coming off a city line...
I dunno if this is easily possible, but I'll ask my brother
(he's a commercial electrician).

New electric motors in the same hp are about 5x to 10x as expensive.
--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA
I have seen EV Dragsters with electric forklift motors putting out 500
HP. Can pull a 3000 lb car Down the 1/4 mile in 14 or so sec.
Now where to get the 440 volts dc from

Easy, an industrial dc rectifier. As industrial rectifiers go, this
would be a small one.


home built up to 70 mph, 50 to 100 mile range, 1000 foot lbs of torque
Lots of info here.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EVList/messages/

"Littleboy" wrote in message
ws.com...
In article ,
says...

"Littleboy" wrote in message
ews.com...
In article ,
says...
(Craig Freeman) wrote in message
. com...
"Bob Korves" wrote in message
...
"Craig Freeman" wrote in message


I am a parts person at an International Trucks (Navistar)
dealer.
We are
full service dealers for International, Cummins, Detroit Diesel,
and
Caterpillar engines. It is certainly possible to reprogram the
ECU's of
these diesels. We do it every day. Simple and easy enough for
high
school
drop outs to do. I sell the software for reprogramming the
engines.
Shrink
wrap stuff, just like at the computer store. That said, it
would
probably
be possible to just replace the TPS (Throttle Position Sensor,
"electronic
foot pedal") with a microprocessor circuit and get the thing to
do
what you
need. I am not a computer nerd, so I don't know the details...
-Bob Korves


I still hear too many stories from truck owners, (my company
services
around 2000 trucks a month) that say after reprograming their rig
at
the dealer something was not right and it had to be done again.
Believe
me I understand that some of them don't even know what is under
the
hood of their K Whopper or Petercar but some do know a great deal.
The excess of 100 years of experience which my store managers
have,
all certified deisel mechanics and former shop foreman's and
service
writers with one the big three engine manufacturers, say yes we
can
reprogram but results vary engine to engine and the only way to
know exactly what you have is to put it on the dyno. It will
probably be close but maybe not close enough for this application.
Maybe the tractor pull guys have it all figured out.
I wish to redirect your attention to the original proposition.
"to come up with a design for a safe, reliable, and cost effective
winch, which could be built by a group of amateurs in the USA
using commercially available parts without a whole lot of
modifications". I think that is a worthwhile goal and in the near
future some US clubs might begin to take advantage of such a
design.
By a show of hands is there anyone out there who might actually
build a winch if such a design were presented? If not, we should
probably just go flying. Come on down Bill, I'll bet you dinner
I can snap your head back in that big ole heavy glider you are
flying too. Be sure and bring a heavy link with you.

Craig-

After more investigation I have the following which may help
carify the engine reprogramming discussion. Cummins, at least,
does sell disks which allow the owner to reprogram the ECU's of
their engines. However these disks allow only for the setting of
the peimeters of the engine. Examples are, top idle speed, idle
shut down, auto jake brake, but not HP and torque. When you change
HP and torque outputs it's called "recallibration" and these codes
are locked up by the OEM's and are not sold. Now for the good
news, there are aftermarket hackers selling "recallibration" codes
available for late model midsize diesels. Motorhome and diesel
pickup owners looking for more power are driving this industry.
It voids any warrenty of course but what a small price to pay
when you could get a tire smokin' dually one ton four door.
YeeeHaa!!
I have a connection with one rather large aftermarket designer and
retailer. We have posed the question to him if he could build a
platform of codes which could increase HP in say 5 to 10 percent
increments and be able to input quickly from a laptop. One concern
is to select a engine which is designed to perform within the hp
range needed. We don't need to soup up a engine just control it's
output. Trying to detune a very large diesel has its own
complications.

Craig-

Just a lurker here, with great interest in soaring, but little
experience. However, I may have some expertise in the subject of this
thread.

If I had never seen a sailplane winch, a clean sheet as it were, the
winch I would design would be an engine (fuel makes little difference
at this stage) and generator. The drums would be powered by an
electric motor(s) via a variable speed drive(s). A variable speed
drive can be programmed and operated through a computer, with
virtually every parameter of motor operation infinitely variable.

For example, the parameters for every sailplane could be configured
for the drive and then it would be a simple mouse click to set all
the launch variables for any sailplane configuration.

You could get so slick with this. Maximum cable speed could be set.
Maximum acceleration rates could be set. Every conceivable parameter
could be set and modified in seconds. Man, it would be so cool.

And another nice thing about it? Everything is very reliable, long
lived, and reasonably priced on the used market.

And there ain't nothin' that pulls like an electric motor. Ever been
on a high speed electric train? They just pull and pull and pull.
Maximum torque at zero rpm.

A good engineer would have a field day with this. What a great
project this could be.




Google: "Elektrostartwinde ESW 2B" and use the German to English
language
tools. Search further with "segelflug elektrowinde". These boys use 50
car
batteries recharging them from the mains or a diesel genset.

Take a look at: http://www.skylaunch.de/album/index.html for a album of
winch pictures.

Look at: http://www.dassu.de/Wir_uber_uns/Ele...ktrowinde.html
for
a stationary electric winch.

Electric winches could be (are) everything you say. My initial
investigation indicated the cost was way too high, but then I'm far from
an
expert on high power electric drive stuff. Read the web pages above and
post your opinions.

Bill Daniels


Thanks for the links. As I said, not having any experience with a
launch winch can be helpful because of a lack of preconceived notions
of what a winch should be. On the other hand, it can be a hindrance
because you don't have the benefit of other peoples successes and
failures.

As I wrote the original post I was trying to ballpark costs but still
don't have a design fleshed out enough for even a rough estimate. My
first inclination would be to look for used equipment. Given the
current U.S. economy, and businesses leaving the U.S. In the
Southeast and Northeast of the U.S., textile mills leaving should
have left a surplus of good used electrical equipment on the market.

Fabrication and steel costs probably would be the largest single
component of costs. I think the electrical components would run 2nd,
followed by power wiring, and then control wiring. Then there would
be the miscellaneous costs (I think a safe, habitable control cab
would be nice).

One of the German sites animated the electrical equivilant of their
diesel winch at 1.5kWh. In the U.S. that would be about $0.15. They
used about 0.5l of diesel per launch. Cost today in the U.S. would be
about $0.25. I don't know how many launches a typical club could see
in a day, but I think one would have to figure in increased launch
efficiencies of winch vs. aerotow. Someone should have a good figure
for this.

One club is using a 330HP engine. That would lead me to believe a
200/250HP electric motor would more than do the job. That would be
240 amps at 480v, 3 phase. Figure a 400 amp service for this. A 400
amp receptacle could be mounted below grade in a waterproof box. the
winch could easily be cord connected. (We cord connected the USS
Nimitz at 5,000 volts, so a 400 amp 480 volt cord connection is a
piece of cake).

What intrigues me about this is using a variable speed drive. The
flexibility of controlling the winch would be phenomenal. Here's an
example: http://tinyurl.com/2zafh for a science fair project that
designed a sailplane airspeed telemetry system specifically for winch
launches. This value could easily be programmed into a variable speed
drive. Rate of approach to this value could also be controlled. This
is but one example.

There must be, in the whole U.S., an engineer that designs industrial
drive systems and that is also a sailplane pilot. This could be a
very interesting project to play around with.


I've read that the average single seater can be electrically launched for
about 1kWhr or 3,600,000 Joules.

Keep in mind that the winch must be mobile so that it can be placed at the
extreme upwind edge of the flying field. Very few airfields have a reliable
prevailing wind direction that would allow a permanent winch location. That
pretty much eliminates the fixed power receptacle.

Bill Daniels

In article ,
says...

"Littleboy" wrote in message
ws.com...
In article ,
says...

"Littleboy" wrote in message
ews.com...
In article ,
says...
(Craig Freeman) wrote in message
. com...
"Bob Korves" wrote in message
...
"Craig Freeman" wrote in message


I am a parts person at an International Trucks (Navistar)
dealer.
We are
full service dealers for International, Cummins, Detroit Diesel,
and
Caterpillar engines. It is certainly possible to reprogram the
ECU's of
these diesels. We do it every day. Simple and easy enough for
high
school
drop outs to do. I sell the software for reprogramming the
engines.
Shrink
wrap stuff, just like at the computer store. That said, it
would
probably
be possible to just replace the TPS (Throttle Position Sensor,
"electronic
foot pedal") with a microprocessor circuit and get the thing to
do
what you
need. I am not a computer nerd, so I don't know the details...
-Bob Korves


I still hear too many stories from truck owners, (my company
services
around 2000 trucks a month) that say after reprograming their rig
at
the dealer something was not right and it had to be done again.
Believe
me I understand that some of them don't even know what is under
the
hood of their K Whopper or Petercar but some do know a great deal.
The excess of 100 years of experience which my store managers
have,
all certified deisel mechanics and former shop foreman's and
service
writers with one the big three engine manufacturers, say yes we
can
reprogram but results vary engine to engine and the only way to
know exactly what you have is to put it on the dyno. It will
probably be close but maybe not close enough for this application.
Maybe the tractor pull guys have it all figured out.
I wish to redirect your attention to the original proposition.
"to come up with a design for a safe, reliable, and cost effective
winch, which could be built by a group of amateurs in the USA
using commercially available parts without a whole lot of
modifications". I think that is a worthwhile goal and in the near
future some US clubs might begin to take advantage of such a
design.
By a show of hands is there anyone out there who might actually
build a winch if such a design were presented? If not, we should
probably just go flying. Come on down Bill, I'll bet you dinner
I can snap your head back in that big ole heavy glider you are
flying too. Be sure and bring a heavy link with you.

Craig-

After more investigation I have the following which may help
carify the engine reprogramming discussion. Cummins, at least,
does sell disks which allow the owner to reprogram the ECU's of
their engines. However these disks allow only for the setting of
the peimeters of the engine. Examples are, top idle speed, idle
shut down, auto jake brake, but not HP and torque. When you change
HP and torque outputs it's called "recallibration" and these codes
are locked up by the OEM's and are not sold. Now for the good
news, there are aftermarket hackers selling "recallibration" codes
available for late model midsize diesels. Motorhome and diesel
pickup owners looking for more power are driving this industry.
It voids any warrenty of course but what a small price to pay
when you could get a tire smokin' dually one ton four door.
YeeeHaa!!
I have a connection with one rather large aftermarket designer and
retailer. We have posed the question to him if he could build a
platform of codes which could increase HP in say 5 to 10 percent
increments and be able to input quickly from a laptop. One concern
is to select a engine which is designed to perform within the hp
range needed. We don't need to soup up a engine just control it's
output. Trying to detune a very large diesel has its own
complications.

Craig-

Just a lurker here, with great interest in soaring, but little
experience. However, I may have some expertise in the subject of this
thread.

If I had never seen a sailplane winch, a clean sheet as it were, the
winch I would design would be an engine (fuel makes little difference
at this stage) and generator. The drums would be powered by an
electric motor(s) via a variable speed drive(s). A variable speed
drive can be programmed and operated through a computer, with
virtually every parameter of motor operation infinitely variable.

For example, the parameters for every sailplane could be configured
for the drive and then it would be a simple mouse click to set all
the launch variables for any sailplane configuration.

You could get so slick with this. Maximum cable speed could be set.
Maximum acceleration rates could be set. Every conceivable parameter
could be set and modified in seconds. Man, it would be so cool.

And another nice thing about it? Everything is very reliable, long
lived, and reasonably priced on the used market.

And there ain't nothin' that pulls like an electric motor. Ever been
on a high speed electric train? They just pull and pull and pull.
Maximum torque at zero rpm.

A good engineer would have a field day with this. What a great
project this could be.




Google: "Elektrostartwinde ESW 2B" and use the German to English
language
tools. Search further with "segelflug elektrowinde". These boys use 50
car
batteries recharging them from the mains or a diesel genset.

Take a look at: http://www.skylaunch.de/album/index.html for a album of
winch pictures.

Look at: http://www.dassu.de/Wir_uber_uns/Ele...ktrowinde.html
for
a stationary electric winch.

Electric winches could be (are) everything you say. My initial
investigation indicated the cost was way too high, but then I'm far from
an
expert on high power electric drive stuff. Read the web pages above and
post your opinions.

Bill Daniels


Thanks for the links. As I said, not having any experience with a
launch winch can be helpful because of a lack of preconceived notions
of what a winch should be. On the other hand, it can be a hindrance
because you don't have the benefit of other peoples successes and
failures.

As I wrote the original post I was trying to ballpark costs but still
don't have a design fleshed out enough for even a rough estimate. My
first inclination would be to look for used equipment. Given the
current U.S. economy, and businesses leaving the U.S. In the
Southeast and Northeast of the U.S., textile mills leaving should
have left a surplus of good used electrical equipment on the market.

Fabrication and steel costs probably would be the largest single
component of costs. I think the electrical components would run 2nd,
followed by power wiring, and then control wiring. Then there would
be the miscellaneous costs (I think a safe, habitable control cab
would be nice).

One of the German sites animated the electrical equivilant of their
diesel winch at 1.5kWh. In the U.S. that would be about $0.15. They
used about 0.5l of diesel per launch. Cost today in the U.S. would be
about $0.25. I don't know how many launches a typical club could see
in a day, but I think one would have to figure in increased launch
efficiencies of winch vs. aerotow. Someone should have a good figure
for this.

One club is using a 330HP engine. That would lead me to believe a
200/250HP electric motor would more than do the job. That would be
240 amps at 480v, 3 phase. Figure a 400 amp service for this. A 400
amp receptacle could be mounted below grade in a waterproof box. the
winch could easily be cord connected. (We cord connected the USS
Nimitz at 5,000 volts, so a 400 amp 480 volt cord connection is a
piece of cake).

What intrigues me about this is using a variable speed drive. The
flexibility of controlling the winch would be phenomenal. Here's an
example: http://tinyurl.com/2zafh for a science fair project that
designed a sailplane airspeed telemetry system specifically for winch
launches. This value could easily be programmed into a variable speed
drive. Rate of approach to this value could also be controlled. This
is but one example.

There must be, in the whole U.S., an engineer that designs industrial
drive systems and that is also a sailplane pilot. This could be a
very interesting project to play around with.


I've read that the average single seater can be electrically launched for
about 1kWhr or 3,600,000 Joules.

Keep in mind that the winch must be mobile so that it can be placed at the
extreme upwind edge of the flying field. Very few airfields have a reliable
prevailing wind direction that would allow a permanent winch location. That
pretty much eliminates the fixed power receptacle.

Bill Daniels


As we say in the electrical engineering biz, copper's cheap. 2
runways, 2,000 feet in length each, 2 receptacles per runway. Total 4
receptacles. About 4,300 circuit feet of cabling. Or, a diesel
generator. In the off season, some money could be made with an
emergency generator. Cat, Cummins, or others might just make some
interesting lease-back options available. Food for thought.

I'm also getting the impression that one can use a much less
powerful electric motor becase the amount of HP getting to the
cable and ending up as effective pull is much higher than
for a traditional fuel motor. I'd like to really know what
a 100 hp electric would do in terms of accelerating a
500 pound glider.

Thinking more about advantages and disadvantages, electric
shock could be a biggie, and I imagine there IS some heat
generated. Wear is likely less of an issue, perhaps
brush changes once in a while. Designing it with spectra
in mind seems a good idea...reduces the weight of line and
thereby the HP requirement. This shifts the expense from the
initial expense instead to ongoing expense (replacing and repairing
expensive rope). I'd favor this. Anything that allows the
same UMPF for less initial investment...

Having such good control of the motor seems like it would really
improve efficiency too. Sure sure, expert winch drivers
do great things, but it would be nice to not need "experts"
to do something that should be simple...

One other possible inefficiency...I wonder how much electric
attenuation occurs over even thick power supply cables.
But I definitely think electric winch is the way to go...

Bill Daniels wrote:

that can be pulled by a mid-size pickup or SUV (under 4000 lbs. total).
Anything larger, or built on a truck is, in my opinion, not
practical
for anything other than primarily fixed site usage.

I've seen a bunch of surplus 150 to 200 hp electric motors
for $3,000 to $5,000. Seems like a very logical choice (much cleaner,
easier to control, not as much fire danger, simple, etc.).
But definitely this is a fixed winch (and how does one get 500 volts and
100 amps for a power supply? At Avenal if it ran
the whole city might go dim The 50 car batteries idea is only
$2,000 to $5,000 but one wonders if this and a generator isn't
Avenal, California, USA
I have seen EV Dragsters with electric forklift motors putting out 500
HP. Can pull a 3000 lb car Down the 1/4 mile in 14 or so sec.
Now where to get the 440 volts dc from

home built up to 70 mph, 50 to 100 mile range, 1000 foot lbs of torque
Lots of info here.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EVList/messages/

Before you guys get too far into an electric winch design, look up
"Ultracapacitors". Basically these are huge electrical capacitors that can
charge and discharge at extremely high amperages. Maxwell Technologies in
San Diego that makes the best ones in the world.
http://www.maxwell.com/index.html

Use a small generator set to charge a bank of ultracaps, then dump the
accumulated charge into your 500HP forklift motor.

Bill Daniels




--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

LOL. I've never seen as much overengineering anywhere than
on RAS and in the government. Two winches? Does the wind shift
that often? How about one winch, right next to the existing
power lines (at least for the darned prototype)?

You guys crack me up with your "glider winch and power station
industrial complex" designs. If you're that rich, good
for you! ;P

Littleboy wrote:
In article ,
says...

"Littleboy" wrote in message
ws.com...
In article ,
says...

"Littleboy" wrote in message
ews.com...
In article ,
says...
(Craig Freeman) wrote in message
. com...
"Bob Korves" wrote in message
...
"Craig Freeman" wrote in message


I am a parts person at an International Trucks (Navistar)
dealer.
We are
full service dealers for International, Cummins, Detroit Diesel,
and
Caterpillar engines. It is certainly possible to reprogram the
ECU's of
these diesels. We do it every day. Simple and easy enough for
high
school
drop outs to do. I sell the software for reprogramming the
engines.
Shrink
wrap stuff, just like at the computer store. That said, it
would
probably
be possible to just replace the TPS (Throttle Position Sensor,
"electronic
foot pedal") with a microprocessor circuit and get the thing to
do
what you
need. I am not a computer nerd, so I don't know the details...
-Bob Korves


I still hear too many stories from truck owners, (my company
services
around 2000 trucks a month) that say after reprograming their rig
at
the dealer something was not right and it had to be done again.
Believe
me I understand that some of them don't even know what is under
the
hood of their K Whopper or Petercar but some do know a great deal.
The excess of 100 years of experience which my store managers
have,
all certified deisel mechanics and former shop foreman's and
service
writers with one the big three engine manufacturers, say yes we
can
reprogram but results vary engine to engine and the only way to
know exactly what you have is to put it on the dyno. It will
probably be close but maybe not close enough for this application.
Maybe the tractor pull guys have it all figured out.
I wish to redirect your attention to the original proposition.
"to come up with a design for a safe, reliable, and cost effective
winch, which could be built by a group of amateurs in the USA
using commercially available parts without a whole lot of
modifications". I think that is a worthwhile goal and in the near
future some US clubs might begin to take advantage of such a
design.
By a show of hands is there anyone out there who might actually
build a winch if such a design were presented? If not, we should
probably just go flying. Come on down Bill, I'll bet you dinner
I can snap your head back in that big ole heavy glider you are
flying too. Be sure and bring a heavy link with you.

Craig-

After more investigation I have the following which may help
carify the engine reprogramming discussion. Cummins, at least,
does sell disks which allow the owner to reprogram the ECU's of
their engines. However these disks allow only for the setting of
the peimeters of the engine. Examples are, top idle speed, idle
shut down, auto jake brake, but not HP and torque. When you change
HP and torque outputs it's called "recallibration" and these codes
are locked up by the OEM's and are not sold. Now for the good
news, there are aftermarket hackers selling "recallibration" codes
available for late model midsize diesels. Motorhome and diesel
pickup owners looking for more power are driving this industry.
It voids any warrenty of course but what a small price to pay
when you could get a tire smokin' dually one ton four door.
YeeeHaa!!
I have a connection with one rather large aftermarket designer and
retailer. We have posed the question to him if he could build a
platform of codes which could increase HP in say 5 to 10 percent
increments and be able to input quickly from a laptop. One concern
is to select a engine which is designed to perform within the hp
range needed. We don't need to soup up a engine just control it's
output. Trying to detune a very large diesel has its own
complications.

Craig-

Just a lurker here, with great interest in soaring, but little
experience. However, I may have some expertise in the subject of this
thread.

If I had never seen a sailplane winch, a clean sheet as it were, the
winch I would design would be an engine (fuel makes little difference
at this stage) and generator. The drums would be powered by an
electric motor(s) via a variable speed drive(s). A variable speed
drive can be programmed and operated through a computer, with
virtually every parameter of motor operation infinitely variable.

For example, the parameters for every sailplane could be configured
for the drive and then it would be a simple mouse click to set all
the launch variables for any sailplane configuration.

You could get so slick with this. Maximum cable speed could be set.
Maximum acceleration rates could be set. Every conceivable parameter
could be set and modified in seconds. Man, it would be so cool.

And another nice thing about it? Everything is very reliable, long
lived, and reasonably priced on the used market.

And there ain't nothin' that pulls like an electric motor. Ever been
on a high speed electric train? They just pull and pull and pull.
Maximum torque at zero rpm.

A good engineer would have a field day with this. What a great
project this could be.




Google: "Elektrostartwinde ESW 2B" and use the German to English
language
tools. Search further with "segelflug elektrowinde". These boys use 50
car
batteries recharging them from the mains or a diesel genset.

Take a look at: http://www.skylaunch.de/album/index.html for a album of
winch pictures.

Look at: http://www.dassu.de/Wir_uber_uns/Ele...ktrowinde.html
for
a stationary electric winch.

Electric winches could be (are) everything you say. My initial
investigation indicated the cost was way too high, but then I'm far from
an
expert on high power electric drive stuff. Read the web pages above and
post your opinions.

Bill Daniels


Thanks for the links. As I said, not having any experience with a
launch winch can be helpful because of a lack of preconceived notions
of what a winch should be. On the other hand, it can be a hindrance
because you don't have the benefit of other peoples successes and
failures.

As I wrote the original post I was trying to ballpark costs but still
don't have a design fleshed out enough for even a rough estimate. My
first inclination would be to look for used equipment. Given the
current U.S. economy, and businesses leaving the U.S. In the
Southeast and Northeast of the U.S., textile mills leaving should
have left a surplus of good used electrical equipment on the market.

Fabrication and steel costs probably would be the largest single
component of costs. I think the electrical components would run 2nd,
followed by power wiring, and then control wiring. Then there would
be the miscellaneous costs (I think a safe, habitable control cab
would be nice).

One of the German sites animated the electrical equivilant of their
diesel winch at 1.5kWh. In the U.S. that would be about $0.15. They
used about 0.5l of diesel per launch. Cost today in the U.S. would be
about $0.25. I don't know how many launches a typical club could see
in a day, but I think one would have to figure in increased launch
efficiencies of winch vs. aerotow. Someone should have a good figure
for this.

One club is using a 330HP engine. That would lead me to believe a
200/250HP electric motor would more than do the job. That would be
240 amps at 480v, 3 phase. Figure a 400 amp service for this. A 400
amp receptacle could be mounted below grade in a waterproof box. the
winch could easily be cord connected. (We cord connected the USS
Nimitz at 5,000 volts, so a 400 amp 480 volt cord connection is a
piece of cake).

What intrigues me about this is using a variable speed drive. The
flexibility of controlling the winch would be phenomenal. Here's an
example: http://tinyurl.com/2zafh for a science fair project that
designed a sailplane airspeed telemetry system specifically for winch
launches. This value could easily be programmed into a variable speed
drive. Rate of approach to this value could also be controlled. This
is but one example.

There must be, in the whole U.S., an engineer that designs industrial
drive systems and that is also a sailplane pilot. This could be a
very interesting project to play around with.


I've read that the average single seater can be electrically launched for
about 1kWhr or 3,600,000 Joules.

Keep in mind that the winch must be mobile so that it can be placed at the
extreme upwind edge of the flying field. Very few airfields have a reliable
prevailing wind direction that would allow a permanent winch location. That
pretty much eliminates the fixed power receptacle.

Bill Daniels


As we say in the electrical engineering biz, copper's cheap. 2
runways, 2,000 feet in length each, 2 receptacles per runway. Total 4
receptacles. About 4,300 circuit feet of cabling. Or, a diesel
generator. In the off season, some money could be made with an
emergency generator. Cat, Cummins, or others might just make some
interesting lease-back options available. Food for thought.


--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA